Discussions By Condition: Mental conditions

Antisocial personality disorder?

Posted In: Mental conditions 33 Replies
  • Posted By: Anonymous
  • December 4, 2006
  • 09:14 PM

My daughter is 15 and has been suspended from school for stealing money, not once but daily for 3 months! They just now suspended her because they have witnesses recently that saw her doing it. Her stealing has been an issue for over 7 years. It started off with little things, erasers, pencil sharpeners and such, but for the past few years it is mass amounts of money. She forged my signature on school papers saying we needed assistance with lunches for her because of all her brothers and sisters, we didn't have enough to go around. She is an only child and we make in excess of $90k a year! She lies constantly, regardless of what it is about. She shows no sign of guilt for her actions, really shows no regret at all. Her nature comes off as angelic and can do no wrong, she is also very immature for her age(acts maybe 12). The school couselor said " she appears to have a golden halo above her", but the counselor also saw right through the behavior and advised us of the anti-social personality. Her grades are dropping because she won't do the work; she has a smart mouth and disrespectful nature; won't do chores or even make her bed; overall claims she is doing nothing wrong and sees nothing wrong with what she is doing. Since her suspension, she now talks of "if I wasn't here this wouldn't happen" but I have asked her if she wasn't here, where would she be and she says she doesn't know. Is that an indication of suicidal thoughts? We live in a small town, quite a driving distance to a major city and there aren't very many doctors here that you could class as professional. I know no one here can ofer a diagnosis, but anyone got any ideas what it sounds like so I cna look it up on the web and get some answers? Thank you!

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33 Replies:

  • is she physically small?was she small at birth?
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 1, 2007
    • 08:00 PM
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  • A workmate of mine's daughter, was recently diagnosed with bpd(borderline personality disorder) She also shows some anti-social behaviors. I have actully known her daughter for quite some time, and she sounds like yours. She started acting this way in elementry school, and it just got worse. Maybe taking her to a counselor that isn't at school would be a good idea. They could help you deal or work with her in day to day situations. I am so sorry that you have to go through all that. I hope you have gotten something figured out. Good luck.
    crazybrazy 30 Replies
    • January 3, 2007
    • 03:01 AM
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  • In regards to "is she small" : yes. She is 5'2" 103 lbs., very petite. She was normal at birth, normal full term, average sized baby. What does that possibly indicate?In regards to the second response: Since I posted this, I have taken her to a therapist / psychologist for evaluation outside of the school. After 3 visits, each about an hour and a half long, he said there is nothing wrong with her. Christmas break has just been a real treat. She has thrown baby fits in the store parking lot because I told her to behave when we went in the store, so she began to walk as if she was stiff and started to pout and cry. I sent her out to do some yard work, she cried with the excuse " I can't pick things up today, find me another job to do..." She was screaming at the dog for no reason with a satanic growl in her voice, which for her was unusual. She always speaks so quietly and whiny, you can barely hear her. Seems no matter where we turn we are getting nowhere. She wants to move out and move into an aunt's house. Swears she will stop the lying, stealing, nasty behavior, crappy grades. The therapist guy said to let her move out, with the condition that one mistake she comes home immediately and will not return. I took her to the juvenile probation office, where the officer was slamming things around and yelling at her, she could care less so he gave her community service. That didn't phase her in the least, she did hte service and seemed to enjoy herself. When we went back to see the officer for a followup visit, he gave her more community service because she has not changed her attitude any. Even he doesn't know what to do with her. Thanks for anyone's input, I am relieved to see I am not the only one with a "problem" child.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 5, 2007
    • 07:21 PM
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  • thanks for the reply to"is she small".as to what it may indicate,its early days yet.i need to know more.(but i was right about "small"so it may be worth your while to answer again,so we can narrow this down to a more specific indication.)i need to know if she was anxious or fretful as a baby.if you do not want to engage in dialogue you need not do so.but facts and observations are better than guesses.even if in the end ,as is possible the results of our efforts are inconclusive.thats science.the more you observe the better it gets!thanks again for replying to what may seem to be an irrelevant enquiry.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 20, 2007
    • 01:41 PM
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  • You might want to take a look at the NAMI web site at www.nami.org they have a lot of information about this type of thing and resources that perhaps you could use.
    justcurious 5 Replies
    • January 20, 2007
    • 01:50 PM
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  • i have a friend who's daughter is going thru the same symptoms. In the last couple of years she has progressively gotten more destructive in her behavior. The running away, acting out in school, disrepectful to others including her mother is just some of the problems that exist. It is also troubling to see that much of her personality mirrors her mothers, but it isn't being addressed by therapist. The disrespect of others and manipulation the rudeness and excessive yelling are just a few of the ways that she exhibits. I was wondering if a therapist or psychiatrist would ever link the two behaviors together in order to help both of them.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 20, 2007
    • 07:29 PM
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  • to unregistered mother of undiagnosed and problematic daughter.please consider replying to my request for information.i assure you that i am building a picture which will result in a diagnosis for you.i am not wasting your time and i am not shooting in the dark.but i will need to be very sure that i have got it right before i commit myself.it is all too important to rush to judgement.but there is urgency too.if i am right about my developing understanding here,i have to say that suicide -one of the concerns which you mention,-is not unknown in these circumstances.the possibility that she may leave home -another of your worries ,-is also a consistent part of the clarifying pattern.tell me; (another question,sorry,)do you share my concern that if she does leave,she will not be able to protect herself properly,and will become prey to all sorts of physical and moral dangers?do you agree that this is a realistic fear?i think for these two reasons,we need to do our thinking and analysis fast,but we mustnt jump the gun ,so to speak.please trust me .i know what i am talking about here.too many years have passed already.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 21, 2007
    • 02:03 PM
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  • As a baby, she was very good, not anxious or fretful. Slept all night, easily potty trained by 2!The psychologist said no need to return for any more therapy sessions, he said there is nothing wromg with her! She is doing everything on purpose, and doesn't care. He said that is not a clinical or mental problem, just plain stubborn. He mentioned she does live in a fantasy world and it runs over into the real world, but still nothing clinical or mental. He advised to allow her to live with a relaitve, under our close watch of course, as a test to see if she improves like she claims she will. I have seen her at her aunt's house and she is truely a different person! If our trash is overflowing she won't take it out, until I say take out the trash, then I get a whine and attitude like it is the end of the world. At her aunt's house she doesn't need to be told, if she sees the trash over flowing, she automatically takes it out, and is happy about it. She is truely a Jeckyl & Hyde personality and very manipulative. Not sure how the pscyhologist did not see that.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 22, 2007
    • 02:18 AM
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  • thank you for replying.in my opinion,the psychologist is wrong.ask him why he has discounted the following pattern,and why he cant see the significance of it:(to restate your posts)1.physically ,emotionally and behaviourally immature.(the car park incident)2.lies .3.steals.4, acutely manipulative.(a continuing problem,i wonder if you can see it?or does she retain the initiative altogether?)5.shows no sign of conscience or guilt.6.impervious to censure.("it didnt phase her") (she could care less")7.emotionally explosive.(the bins)8..poor scholastic performance,in spite of evident intelligence.("crappy grades" despite being able to manipulate a row of professionals,and to-almost - pull off this dinner money scam!) 9.disrupted education,with suspension a feature.10.trouble with the law.(implicit in "stealing", and two!two!doses of community service.)11.poor attention span(the yard work incident).12.poor self care(the bed problem.tell me this isnt the tip of a big iceberg!)13.deterioration in behaviour in early adolescence..("its been going on for seven years"-the stealing-)14.baffling to others(even he -the juvenile probation officer- didnt know what to do with her.")15. stubborn.("she hadnt changed her attitude any"). 16.a deteriorating pattern.17 a pattern which is immediately recognisable to other forum users who have mentioned children in similar states of distress.18.a concern about suicide,(how can this be o.k?)19.belligerence.....(many examples of this) 20.( i am prepared to guess again..difficulties maintaining friendships....and i have ten more "guesses " up my sleeve,five of which will be accurate.) to sum up: i know what is going on here; i know its name and how it will develop.your psychologist does not know.and you do not want to know.you want me to tell you about acupuncture and reflexology,or vitamins or oriental medicine.end of story .end of my involvement.good luck.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 22, 2007
    • 00:40 PM
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  • to unregistered writer concerned for friends daughter in distress.this is a good observation which you have made.though this condition is not genetically transmitted,it is frequently the case that an affected mother has an affected child .however,affected fathers do not tend to have affected children.though it can happen coincidentally.the mechanism whereby this happens is well understood.you have done well to spot this.of course in the absence of certain other critical diagnostic criteria,one observation is not much on which to base any conclusion .unfortunately,you are wrong to suppose that the pattern opens up a way to help,at least in our current state of understanding.one of the difficulties with this condition is that it is not simple to diagnose.there are many different patterns of presentation,with varied signs and symptoms.all that can be done is to find "some of this sort of thing "with"some of that sort of thing"in association with"some of the other".no one sign or symptom need necessarily be present, and conversely,the absence of a sign is not necessarily significant.there is always some slight degree of ambiguity ,except in the most extreme cases which are very easy to diagnose.nonetheless the medical profession still seems to manage to miss it.less severe cases are routinely ignored or misdiagnosed as asbergers syndrome, a.d.h.d., dislexia, (that old phoney) , autism,antisocial personality disorder,o.d.d.(oppositional defiant disorder) special learning needs, and goodness knows what else.you may note that i am withholding the name of the condition:i have a good reason for that.keep observing.all will become clear
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 22, 2007
    • 05:42 PM
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  • Both of the last 2 responses have hit the lovely behavior patterns right on the head. "i am withholding the name of the condition"-- what condition & what name are you both refering to? I completely understand that your opinions are merely that, opinions. And of course none will be taken into legal concerns. One of you also mentioned, "i know its name and how it will develop.your psychologist does not know.and you do not want to know"-- actually, I do want to know. I would like to know what condition your are refering to so that I may look into it further on the web, and see for myself.Please advise as to what name of the condition you are refering to.Thanks!
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 26, 2007
    • 01:35 AM
    • 0
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  • if it looks like a duck ,walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ,its not a matter of opinion:its a duck.i had hoped to satisfy myself that it wasnt a duck,and i still really hope it is not.but ducks of this particular sub species are increasingly common .go to an ornithologist. ask him this time to listen carefully to your observations of her behaviour,and not to allow himself to be taken in by" the act."there are not many problems which cause the sort of profile,;anyone used to dealing with unhappy children,should recognise it.that is if you get the chance to describe it in terms which are recognisable to a professional..that is why i gave you my list of items 1 to 20.(i had hoped to have1 to 40) in the form in which i have presented it ,it is hard to ignore or to misunderstand.and of course (s)he will have access to much more information than i have ,in that he will be able to see your daughter.many of the questions i would have liked to have asked relate to physical appearance,aspects of which can be very suggestive, (a fact which runs counter to our deepest beliefs about disturbed children.) my motive in this was to be as sure as i could possibly be before committing myself.this is a childs life and a families happiness we are talking about here.you would want me to be sure,i think.the slight ambiguity which remains is due to the fact that (and this is the good news)i dont think that hers is an extreme case,by any means,which is why some features are missing.had the more obvious indicators been present,the difficulty would have been probably picked up soon after birth.in most cases where physical signs exist,they are lost in adolescence,as growth and development obviate them,and the face normalises.in your daughters case i do not anticipate that there will be more than vestigal signs present,soon to be lost,which would take, quite possibly, a specialist to identify at this stage.of course there may be none present at all.this would complicate diagnosis,but i hope it is the case anyway.for these reasons you need to see a competent person.(at least you are not in england,where this sort of thing is hardly ever diagnosed correctly, usually for the worst of reasons,and tens of thousands of children and their families are paying the price.)again let me say that i truly hope i am completely wrong about this. and again i warn you that there are thousands of practitioners only too eager to tell you "nothing wrong" "a.d. h. d." "dislexia" "anti social personality disorder" "vitamin deficiency" "too much yang not enough yin" "oppositional defiant disorder" "just plain bad" " lack of discipline " " borderline schitzophrenia" " heavy metal poisoning " "allergies" "aspergers syndrome " "chakras out of balance" "depression " (though depression will probably be to a degree,present,poor thing.,it is not i think, a cause.) i am sorry to have been abrupt with you.i became frustrated at the feeling that you were not going to make progress with this.i am sorry also not to accede to your understandable request .it would not ,at this stage, be responsible,or fair.it is 3.15 a.m. here.goodnight!
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 26, 2007
    • 03:15 AM
    • 0
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  • if it looks like a duck ,walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ,its not a matter of opinion:its a duck.i had hoped to satisfy myself that it wasnt a duck,and i still really hope it is not.but ducks of this particular sub species are increasingly common .go to an ornithologist. ask him this time to listen carefully to your observations of her behaviour,and not to allow himself to be taken in by" the act."there are not many problems which cause the sort of profile,;anyone used to dealing with unhappy children,should recognise it.that is if you get the chance to describe it in terms which are recognisable to a professional..that is why i gave you my list of items 1 to 20.(i had hoped to have1 to 40) in the form in which i have presented it ,it is hard to ignore or to misunderstand.and of course (s)he will have access to much more information than i have ,in that he will be able to see your daughter.many of the questions i would have liked to have asked relate to physical appearance,aspects of which can be very suggestive, (a fact which runs counter to our deepest beliefs about disturbed children.) my motive in this was to be as sure as i could possibly be before committing myself.this is a childs life and a families happiness we are talking about here.you would want me to be sure,i think.the slight ambiguity which remains is due to the fact that (and this is the good news)i dont think that hers is an extreme case,by any means,which is why some features are missing.had the more obvious indicators been present,the difficulty would have been probably picked up soon after birth.in most cases where physical signs exist,they are lost in adolescence,as growth and development obviate them,and the face normalises.in your daughters case i do not anticipate that there will be more than vestigal signs present,soon to be lost,which would take, quite possibly, a specialist to identify at this stage.of course there may be none present at all.this would complicate diagnosis,but i hope it is the case anyway.for these reasons you need to see a competent person.(at least you are not in england,where this sort of thing is hardly ever diagnosed correctly, usually for the worst of reasons,and tens of thousands of children and their families are paying the price.)again let me say that i truly hope i am completely wrong about this. and again i warn you that there are thousands of practitioners only too eager to tell you "nothing wrong" "a.d. h. d." "dislexia" "anti social personality disorder" "vitamin deficiency" "too much yang not enough yin" "oppositional defiant disorder" "just plain bad" " lack of discipline " " borderline schitzophrenia" " heavy metal poisoning " "allergies" "aspergers syndrome " "chakras out of balance" "depression " (though depression will probably be to a degree,present,poor thing.,it is not i think, a cause.) i am sorry to have been abrupt with you.i became frustrated at the feeling that you were not going to make progress with this.i am sorry also not to accede to your understandable request .it would not ,at this stage, be responsible,or fair.it is 3.15 a.m. here.goodnight!
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 26, 2007
    • 03:27 AM
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  • if it looks like a duck ,walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ,its not a matter of opinion:its a duck.i had hoped to satisfy myself that it wasnt a duck,and i still really hope it is not.but ducks of this particular sub species are increasingly common .go to an ornithologist. ask him this time to listen carefully to your observations of her behaviour,and not to allow himself to be taken in by" the act."there are not many problems which cause the sort of profile,;anyone used to dealing with unhappy children,should recognise it.that is if you get the chance to describe it in terms which are recognisable to a professional..that is why i gave you my list of items 1 to 20.(i had hoped to have1 to 40) in the form in which i have presented it ,it is hard to ignore or to misunderstand.and of course (s)he will have access to much more information than i have ,in that he will be able to see your daughter.many of the questions i would have liked to have asked relate to physical appearance,aspects of which can be very suggestive, (a fact which runs counter to our deepest beliefs about disturbed children.) my motive in this was to be as sure as i could possibly be before committing myself.this is a childs life and a families happiness we are talking about here.you would want me to be sure,i think.the slight ambiguity which remains is due to the fact that (and this is the good news)i dont think that hers is an extreme case,by any means,which is why some features are missing.had the more obvious indicators been present,the difficulty would have been probably picked up soon after birth.in most cases where physical signs exist,they are lost in adolescence,as growth and development obviate them,and the face normalises.in your daughters case i do not anticipate that there will be more than vestigal signs present,soon to be lost,which would take, quite possibly, a specialist to identify at this stage.of course there may be none present at all.this would complicate diagnosis,but i hope it is the case anyway.for these reasons you need to see a competent person.(at least you are not in england,where this sort of thing is hardly ever diagnosed correctly, usually for the worst of reasons,and tens of thousands of children and their families are paying the price.)again let me say that i truly hope i am completely wrong about this. and again i warn you that there are thousands of practitioners only too eager to tell you "nothing wrong" "a.d. h. d." "dislexia" "anti social personality disorder" "vitamin deficiency" "too much yang not enough yin" "oppositional defiant disorder" "just plain bad" " lack of discipline " " borderline schitzophrenia" " heavy metal poisoning " "allergies" "aspergers syndrome " "chakras out of balance" "depression " (though depression will probably be to a degree,present,poor thing.,it is not i think, a cause.) i am sorry to have been abrupt with you.i became frustrated at the feeling that you were not going to make progress with this.i am sorry also not to accede to your understandable request .it would not ,at this stage, be responsible,or fair.it is 3.15 a.m. here.goodnight!
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 26, 2007
    • 03:50 AM
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  • i dont know what went wrong here.apologies to all.i kept being given an impossible sequences of letters to copy.over and over again it said "did not match the sequence of letters given"so i had to keep repeating it.i was sure i was getting it right !turns out i was.sorry again,to all users.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 26, 2007
    • 09:10 AM
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  • To ask for so much information and not give a straight answer is not fair. I'm so sorry for you having to go through this with your child. I am 31 and I was pretty much the exact same way as a child. I really didn't care about anything or anyone. I am small, though in the past couple of years I have gained weight due to a physical disability. I don't know if being small really has anything to do with anything. This person asking all of these questions and not giving answers is really not being fair and is exhibiting a meanness of their own. What I can tell you is that I had a slew of labels before I became an adult. I was given all kinds of names of what it could be. I also was a sweetheart at other people's houses. I did go and live with a family member, after already being put into the Children's Aid Society (Canadian.) My parents got to the point of not being able to handle me. I was still very young. It took a huge criminal act, and me being of age to be charged for such an act, to get me into the CAS. I ended up back in the system after a while, but I was often doing criminal acts, such as assults. The worst part is that the family member and his wife were/are police officers. Unfortunately, I spent many years on many medications. I took all sorts of anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, anti-convulsive, anti-psycotic medications and the list goes on. The saddest part about the whole thing was that I was on my best behaviour when I was on all of these pills since they turned me into a zombie. Once I became an adult, 18-19 years, I was formally diagnosed with an extreme case of anti-social personality disorder (APD.) I am on this forum today as I have done so well for a long time and now I am on my way back into this awful state of being. I am looking for new information to help me get better and keep me being the caring person I was able to become. I hope you are able to find help for your daughter. I think that with the way the world has become and all the things we are now exposed to, they should be able to diagnose adolescents with APD. There are now so much violence and uncaring , which are symptoms of this disorder, that children and adolescents are exhibiting this much earlier. This should mean that they should diagnose this earlier. I will keep my prayers and thoughts with you. I know it is hard to deal with but I recommend tough love. I know I was very against while I was acting out but I think that it saved my life and helped me immensely. I think my present reversion has to do with things that have happened and my physical disability but I am hoping that you are able to help your daughter with this. She will never know what happiness is until she can really feel it. ADP robs you of positive emotions but I hope you can help her find them somehow, maybe her living with an aunt for a while can help. You never know.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 29, 2007
    • 04:30 AM
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  • doing the right thing isnt always easy.and though i asked for information,i didnt get much.do not be misled by my list 1 to 20 above. ,eighteen of those items i was left to adduce for myself from the posted material.one item--small stature -was a confirmed guess ,another an unconfirmed guess.i am not actually getting much cooperation here. it is not as if the information is coming back thick and fast,though it would speed things up if it did .no matter .i think i have a way around this.as far as unfair goes---there are many unfair things to be faced in this situation,unless i am much in error.(and i say again, i hope i am-in error ,that is.-)what i want to do at this stage is to assure this mother that her concern is not misplaced,to emphasise that the pattern she has observed is precisely that-a pattern,and a recognised pattern of distress which should be properly diagnosed and treated by an expert,and to help her to codify and organise the information she takes to a competent professional.the childs self presentation is wholly and competently self serving and diversionary,and i share this mothers lack of confidence in the professionals locally available to her .we must make sure that the next consultation takes into account all the salient facts .that is why i wanted to know more. we must try to make sure that the right person is consulted,also.this is difficult for me to ensure at this distance,but in england,i would try to get this child and mother to a child psychiatrist in a major teaching hospital.this problem is not new ,(it was observed and described in the ancient world)but it is certainly new to science,only identified formally in 1968-some say 1973.many doctors are not as aware as they might be.,but awareness is growing. two things i ask ,further of this concerned and if i am right ,exhausted mother.i have prepared a list for you .add the items which apply to your daughter and add them to my 1to 20 list above.show it all to the doctor you ultimately choose.but first, looking more closely at your posts,and this time at my files on this topic ,i find i can identify ten more observed themes; i want you to add them to my 1 to 20 list:21.unresponsive to verbal cautions. 22.poor problem solving strategies.23.unexpected,perplexing,,unusual behaviour.24.impaired ability to appreciate consequences.25.manipulativeness.26.recklessness.27.indifference to social disapproval.28."tragic"bursts of rage.--a quote from an authority on this phenomenon.29.usual parental attempts to discipline have little effect.30.ignores regulations ,routines,and norms.(begin to look increasingly familiar?)i will let you interpolate the examples this time!my finger is getting sore!now for my checklist:1. facial indications.(remember because this is not an extreme case,these may not be present.(A).short ,upturned nose.(B).low nose bridge.(C).eyes seemingly rather round.(D).wide set eyes.(E)indistinct philtrum--the vertical groove under the nose.(F).thin upper lip--the bit where the lipstick goes.(G).small jawbone.(H).pointed chin.(I).small teeth with thin enamel.(J),ears sometimes everted,small or with other aberrations.(K).flattened midface ,with broad cheekbones and brow.(oddly other children often find these features attractive,but what they mean is seldom so.)but as i said ,probably absent in your case.the presence of one feature in company with a neurological picture like this,however, is certainly indicative.2.growth indications. we neednt spend much time on this; the important thing is present--slow growth.3.neurological indicators.(we cant see the nerves---unless we scan the brain,which might be worth doing-----but we can see how their attenuated development is affecting her behaviour.so,to work.(A).violates pesonal space conventions . (B).impulsive.(C).poor memory.(D).outgoing and socially engaging.(E).indiscriminate with physical affection---does not discriminate between family and strangers.(F).recovers quickly when reprimanded.(G).fearless.(H).indifferent to punishment.(I).high pain tolerance.(J)poor social judgement---poor sense of who should and who should not be trusted.(K).good vocabulary with paradoxically poor understanding.(L).neat handwriting---often.(M).fondness for lists and charts.(N).poor internalising of modelled behaviours.(O).poor time structuring---possibly late in learning to tell the time.---certainly disrespect for time ,her own and that of others.(P).intrusive.(Q).irresponsible with money.(R).forgetful with money.(S).finds money difficult to manage.(T).does not manage money age appropriately.(U).money comprehension poor.(yes i know,but im drawing these observations from a variety of uncoordinated sources it is a problem which afflicts all observations of things new to science.individual observers describe things slightly differently.(V)limited capacity for empathy.(W).limited emotional range.(X).limited emotional capacity---except for anger and sorrow.(Y)difficulty with abstract concepts.(Z).immature interests.(AA)difficulty making transitions.(BB).poor impulse control.(CC).poor manipulative skills.(DD).poor motor coordination.(EE)poor hand/eye coordination.((((these following will have been more visible in childhood.---if present at all.(FF)rage .(GG).hitting and biting. (HH).picks at ,tears and shreds clothing.(yes i know,very odd ,but i have seen it!)(II)impaired motor skills.(JJ)difficulty understanding cause and effect.(KK)."an odd wispy , flighty quality to movement."this last from one of the pioneers in the field.this list is not exhaustive!!remember you dont have to tick every box ---"some"is enough for diagnosis.especially in view of the "slow growth "observation.---normal at birth+ small now,=slow growth.these children exhaust their caregivers (as i suppose you have noticed)and are very expensive as far as public services are concerned.i have seen lifetime costs to the public purse placed between one and a half million dollars and five million dollars and that is per child.so dont be too surprised if you encounter reluctance to diagnose.you would think it didnt exist in england.if they dont diagnose it they dont have to pay for it ,do they?but you must press for your rights.dont take advice about what to do until you have a properly prepared care plan based on a diagnosis.but in the interim be kind and love love rather than "tough love,"if possible.(as i am sure you do.) if you seriously get nowhere in the next year ,get back to me and i will tell you the words to yell at them and you can ask why they dont recognise the blinkin obvious.rather than say how much i care about you and your daughter,i ask you to consider the commitment evident here,and draw your own conclusion.this is no place for sentimentality or for sentimentalists,though i am sorry to hear of the suffering of your other respondent.good luck.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • January 29, 2007
    • 04:05 PM
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  • To the person from Canada: Thank you, and I hope you will get yourself balanced out and head for the better road ahead. I wish you all the luck!To the other "unknown" with much knowledge: kudos to you, you have hit it on the head with everything. My daughter is now living at a relatives house and not to my suprise, is on her absolute best behavior. She has been there going on 3 weeks now, is full of assistance doing chores and housework, studies for tests, does homework, suddenly has straight A's in school... Complete opossite of when she was at home, and has not bothered to call me / return my calls even once in the past 3 weeks to say "hi". Not sure what to make of it. Probable too soon to tell if she will fall into her old ways or not. Upon moving out, she signed a list of rules, a contract actually, on conditions of moving out. She fully understands that she can stay at the relatives until she turns 18 (which at that point she will be finding her own place to live or go to the military), assuming she does not lie, cheat, steal, pretty much do all the things she is capable of doing that are not acceptable. If she falls into the old pattern, she will be arrested, and may or may not be allowed back here. Could this be that she flat out just hates us that much that all the negatives were worth it to her in order to get out of here?
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • February 13, 2007
    • 10:57 PM
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  • I just joined this list, have issues of my own to address, but got caught up in lookinig at yours and your daughter's story.I go with the person who had similar symptoms. I don't think your daughter hates you, but I think she has been crying out for structure, limits, clarity, and instead, she can distract you with her conversation, which to her suggests that you can't really hear her. She has a habit of distracting conversations, but she also knows it leaves her misunderstood and lonely, and she hopes you can know her better, and get onto her side, and trust her and love her, and take the conversations with a grain of salt, with compassion and expressed good wishes, and disregard her denial. Instead, you seem to get angry and hurt, or trying to diagnose (which puts you at a distance) instead of hearing her loneliness and need to be involved in a consistent structure that leads to meaning, and learn to talk more effectively and realistically.It sounds as if your interactions have (understandably) become rote, so you end up arguing with her instead of trying to help her get gentle but strict limits, that help her move towards developing real learning skills. This whole focus on diagnosis seems to me to miss the issue. She is an only child - (I love her story about there being not enough money for her among "all" the siblings - she sounds brilliantly creative! That also sounds like a cry to others to provide gentle guidance and meaning in an isolated life.) Fact is, our world today is fragmented, torn in innumerable directions, and most people are lonely. The meaning of collaborating and support of each other's growth has gotten lost, in favor of symptoms and abstractions and distance and hurrying. Schools are as bad as families - all caught up in a period of time of apparently unlimited options, eveyone on a completely different page, few doing any activities together.That's a complicated set of assertions, but I recommend that you let your daughter stay with the relative who is doing well with her, maybe for a year or two, tell her you want to support anything that works, that you love her, and will try to support her growth - not the diagnosis or your involvement which has been fear based instead of growth based. Tell her you support her growth and no matter what, that you want to stand by her and have a relationship with her - which she wants, but she is angry that you cannot see her experiences - both positive and negative, in her world. I suggest that you stop trying all the time, to teach her how to behave for you or others, but focus on her experiences instead - offer to meet with her once a week, to do an activity together, maybe go bowling or play pool - or something else that you are both able to do. Have dinner out also. And try to focus only on trying to get to know her - without jumping to ANY quick interpretations from her words. For too long, she has said all kinds of words, and they don't lead anyone to know her better. All of us humans have contradictory thoughts and goals - just tell her she's creative, and that you love her, even if you don't know how to help her exactly. But you are willing to try on any one piece if she wants. It'll take time for her to learn that it is her consistent focus and work efforts (on any projects) that will bring results that she likes, and I hope there are limits and clear structures in the relative's family, for it seems that as the only child, that was inadequate in your house - too much forgiveness, then blame, then confusion, all going around and around. Any limits you set, need to be only advice, like to tell her - speak to me with respect, like give me time to think, or don't dismiss my idea without listening to it, for it hurts and distracts me if you don't, so please try. I know i takes time to learn new ways! But keep trying, and try to show respect too, even if you state a limit you want.Terrence Real wrote a very helpful book that has excellent and readable illustrations of how conversations get oppositional and off track VERY quickly. He wrote it about marriage, but the conversation and relational focus applies to many relations - you have to value the relationship and SHOW that, then the words make more sense. Getting distracted by different topics misses the relational boat. His book is called The New Rules of Marriage. Another good souce of limits with love and clarity, is the TV show, SuperNanny. The woman who comes to work with families and children is very experienced, firm, kind and compassionate, and teaches how to set limits, and add other times for just enjoying each other.I wish you - and your daughter, very good luck! One good thing is that she is so vocal, that others do notice her - that's better, I think, than being confused and having no way to get others to notice. I'm glad the doctors don't find anything wrong, because it would be a sad mistake to "fix" behavior, without her family learning how to work more consistently at being serious humans who value relationships, by showing simple supports to one another, do what it takes to convey love, and find some ways to work together. I brought up my youngest brother with Brain Injury, and had to teach him all that, through my own loyalty and determination to listen to him, do activities with him, listen to his stories over years, and look for what went wrong in the relationships or the communication - he was usually right, and others were too rushed, or focused on abstract theories, to notice. CQ
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • February 16, 2007
    • 01:15 PM
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  • In regards to "is she small" : yes. She is 5'2" 103 lbs., very petite. She was normal at birth, normal full term, average sized baby. What does that possibly indicate?In regards to the second response: Since I posted this, I have taken her to a therapist / psychologist for evaluation outside of the school. After 3 visits, each about an hour and a half long, he said there is nothing wrong with her. Christmas break has just been a real treat. She has thrown baby fits in the store parking lot because I told her to behave when we went in the store, so she began to walk as if she was stiff and started to pout and cry. I sent her out to do some yard work, she cried with the excuse " I can't pick things up today, find me another job to do..." She was screaming at the dog for no reason with a satanic growl in her voice, which for her was unusual. She always speaks so quietly and whiny, you can barely hear her. Seems no matter where we turn we are getting nowhere. She wants to move out and move into an aunt's house. Swears she will stop the lying, stealing, nasty behavior, crappy grades. The therapist guy said to let her move out, with the condition that one mistake she comes home immediately and will not return. I took her to the juvenile probation office, where the officer was slamming things around and yelling at her, she could care less so he gave her community service. That didn't phase her in the least, she did hte service and seemed to enjoy herself. When we went back to see the officer for a followup visit, he gave her more community service because she has not changed her attitude any. Even he doesn't know what to do with her. Thanks for anyone's input, I am relieved to see I am not the only one with a "problem" child.the person that asked if she is small is trying to indicate that she has feotal alcohol syndrom...just too let you know...
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • February 19, 2007
    • 10:13 PM
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