Discussions By Condition: I cannot get a diagnosis.

Hormonal/female issue?

Posted In: I cannot get a diagnosis. 17 Replies
  • Posted By: nadira
  • January 9, 2009
  • 07:18 PM

I'm a caucasian 22 year old female. I am concerned about the size of my areolas, which in the last few years have grown extraordinarily.
Over the past 4 years I have had several symptoms:
-areola growth combined with decrease in breast size (areolas are now 2inches in diameter, bra size changed from 36b to 32c)
-weight loss without exercise (145 pounds to 128 pounds. with exercising body is toned, weight doesn't change)
-fine, light hair (parents both have dark hair, one medium, one coarse)
-brittle and fragile fingernails and toenails
-strong sensitivity to cold (uncontrollable shivering and teeth chattering in weather below 60f even with appropriate clothing)
-cracked/dry/peeling heels even in the summer months (previously my heals were smooth even in the winter dryness)

my gynecologist told me that the areola size was normal, but my mother's are much smaller than my own and I only noticed the increase in size in the last few years so it doesn't seem to be genetic. I assume the decrease in breast size is related to the loss in weight. Probably unimportant: I switched from ortho lo to a monophasic oral contraceptive because the ortho lo didn't work right and led to frequent breakthrough bleeding even after the third month of use. Also probably unrelated: since I was young I've had what was diagnosed as keratosis pilaris on the back of my arms. It's a pretty strong case, but neither of my parents have it and that's supposed to be genetic.

Could this be a thyroid disorder? Or some other hormone problem? The symptoms seemed like it, but the thing is... half of them fit with hyper and the other with hypo. What else could it be? My breasts seem to be regressing in development, except for the increase in areola size.

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17 Replies:

  • Yes, I would get checked for thyroid issues. As far as genetics, there is something called a "de novo mutation," meaning "it's happenig for the first time." You might be the first person to have a genetic problem in your family. It happens.
    aquila 1,263 Replies
    • January 9, 2009
    • 08:09 PM
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  • Have you had a blood work done? I would suspect iron deficiency - weight loss, brittle nails, sensitivity to cold, skin and hair problems just to mentions a few (of your symptoms).
    Helene99 23 Replies
    • January 9, 2009
    • 09:52 PM
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  • hm. I was born with an iron deficiency, actually. but I've donated blood twice (had to stop because it made my eyes and ears go dark/silent both times) and both times I passed the iron test (though I did take a multivitamin). And when I was little I was chubby... it would be weird to redevelop a deficiency around age 18, wouldn't it? It should have happened when I hit puberty.maybe I'll have the doctor check for both. I'd rather have the test be accurate than start taking vitamins now just in case. That way I'd know for sure; I can't do multivitamins since they make me nauseated and so I'd rather avoid supplements.I had a lot of bloodwork done a few weeks ago (I had a peritonsillar abscess that was a complication of mono and it was obstructing my airway with 6ccs of pus so I had to go to the ER), would they have tested iron or hormone levels with that? I know they gave me a pregnancy test, which was silly, so maybe they test for everything anyone could possibly have in a developed nation?
    nadira 3 Replies
    • January 9, 2009
    • 10:32 PM
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  • I'm a caucasian 22 year old female. I am concerned about the size of my areolas, which in the last few years have grown extraordinarily.Over the past 4 years I have had several symptoms:-areola growth combined with decrease in breast size (areolas are now 2inches in diameter, bra size changed from 36b to 32c)-weight loss without exercise (145 pounds to 128 pounds. with exercising body is toned, weight doesn't change)-fine, light hair (parents both have dark hair, one medium, one coarse)-brittle and fragile fingernails and toenails-strong sensitivity to cold (uncontrollable shivering and teeth chattering in weather below 60f even with appropriate clothing)-cracked/dry/peeling heels even in the summer months (previously my heals were smooth even in the winter dryness) my gynecologist told me that the areola size was normal, but my mother's are much smaller than my own and I only noticed the increase in size in the last few years so it doesn't seem to be genetic. I assume the decrease in breast size is related to the loss in weight. Probably unimportant: I switched from ortho lo to a monophasic oral contraceptive because the ortho lo didn't work right and led to frequent breakthrough bleeding even after the third month of use. Also probably unrelated: since I was young I've had what was diagnosed as keratosis pilaris on the back of my arms. It's a pretty strong case, but neither of my parents have it and that's supposed to be genetic. Could this be a thyroid disorder? Or some other hormone problem? The symptoms seemed like it, but the thing is... half of them fit with hyper and the other with hypo. What else could it be? My breasts seem to be regressing in development, except for the increase in areola size. If you were to go to a nudist club you would see that areolas are of all sorts of different sizes and colorations not related to breast size. The thin brittle nails, cracked peeling heels, cold sensitivity could be related to nutritional deficiencies, especially b12 deficiency. Certain skin color changes in certain parts of the body can also be caused by b12 deficiencies. As the correct form and brand of b12 matters in this along with other nutritional factors come over to http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?p=137682#post137682 and check all your symptoms against our list and lets talk about it. You should see a doc and get tested for thyroid and other hormonal causes.
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 9, 2009
    • 10:40 PM
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  • Freddd:is there anything that you don't think B12 deficiency causes?
    richard wayne2b 1,232 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 01:44 AM
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  • are you saying that in the past 4 yrs your hair has actually changed colour going fine and light in colour??? (i cant remember what it's called.. i havent currently got my college notes with me.. but i know there is a nutritional issue in 3rd world countries in which the children end up with fine light coloured hair due to it). (it wasnt due to B12)
    taniaaust1 2,267 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 02:35 AM
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  • are you saying that in the past 4 yrs your hair has actually changed colour going fine and light in colour??? No, sorry-- it's always been that way. I should have put that in the other category.
    nadira 3 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 02:56 AM
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  • Freddd:is there anything that you don't think B12 deficiency causes? Hi Richard Wayne2b or not 2b, that is the question, The short answer is YES! Lots of things.Now for the long answer. Immediately below this post is a list of symptoms, signs and co-correlates. I’ll tell you how it was assembled after I look at the predicates of your question. My question to you is “Why do you have such a terribly narrow view of what constitutes a functional b12 deficiency?” Elsewhere you asked me approximately how I could see so much b12 deficiency when pernicious anemia is so rare. Let’s first look at a definition of pernicious anemia. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernicious_anemiaPernicious anemia (also known as Biermer's anemia, Addison's anemia, or Addison-Biermer anemia) is a form of megaloblastic anemia due to vitamin B12deficiency, caused by impaired absorption of vitamin B-12 due to the absence of intrinsic factor in the setting of atrophic gastritis, and more specifically of loss of gastricparietal cells.While the term 'pernicious anemia' is sometimes also incorrectly used to indicate megaloblastic anemia due to any cause of vitamin B-12 deficiency, its proper usage refers to that caused by atrophic gastritis and parietal cell loss only. So what we see is that P.A. is actually a cause of a megaloblastic anemia, not the whole class of b12 deficiency megaloblastic anemias. Further it doesn’t include any of the other many symptoms in blood pathology or any other body systems. I fully agree with you. It is rare. I have only met one person in my life that I know of with P.A. and haven’t run into any at all at wrongdiagnosis of which I am aware. Another cause of selective non-seeing of b12 deficiencies is seeing only one country’s lists of symptoms. The list I have posted below is an international composite made up of at least USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and a few miscellaneous lists as well as symptoms of people that are remedied by b12 plus cofactors. All the lists included were in English. The lists include symptoms, signs and co-correlates such as hypothyroid in which causality is not established. Now it may come as a surprise to you but there is considerable difference in the lists from country to country. Some of the variability appears to be related to which inactive cobalamin is used for supplementation and therapy; either cyanob12 or hydroxyb12 regardless of specific spellings. Further, instead of rolling many different symptoms and variations into one technical line (overloading) that many folks would not understand and that would not be able to indicate something of a progressive nature, I have unpacked and added many variations giving the appearance of redundancy. I’m not done with that unbundling either. I’m seeking the multitude of specific descriptions in order to elicit maximum information. At the moment there are close to 300 descriptions of symptoms, signs and co-correlates. Before it is done the list will be twice as long or there about. When I say responsive symptoms and signs I mean ones that respond to specific brands of methylb12 and adenosylb12 when sublingual tablets are taken in a specific manner or injected methylb12 on top of a basic nutritional base of vitamins, minerals and fats as well as a second tier of approximately 7 critical nutrients that are cofactors in either the DNA replication homocysteine-methionine loop or in ATP production in the mitochondria or aid in the utilization or transport of the two active cobalamins. Cyanob12 and hydroxyb12 are completely irrelevant in this. Both active cobalamins plus all basic cofactors and all critical cofactors (showstoppers) must be taken to maximize the probability and breadth of healing. This definition does produce a broad view of b12 deficiency. Why should people suffer correctable problems to make a definition short? Six years ago at 99.8 my MCV was alerted as it was >96.0. My internist was fit to be tied to find out that my problem had disappeared 5 years later as the warning level had been changed to >100.0. I called the major diagnostic lab. They said that if they alerted half of the tests coming through the lab nobody listened so they set it on a statistical basis. Does this readjustment bother you when hematological standards haven’t changed? The country is slowly becoming increasingly macrocytotic and the alarms keep getting ignored and turned off.
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 07:09 AM
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  • mouth sensitive to hot and cold sore burning tonguebeef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normalsore mouth, no infection or apparant reasonteeth sensitive to hot and coldcanker soresburning bladder (no UTI)painful urgency (no UTI)burning urethra (no UTI)burning muscle painaccumulating muscle pains following exertionsore muscleslack of muscle recovery after exerciseexercise does not build muscleextremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neckexercise deblitates for up to a week, making things much worsepainfully tight muscles, especially legsfrequent muscle spasms anywhere in bodymuscle pain especially around attachment points to bonesEighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMSBursitisdyspepsia - sick stomach, nausea, regurgitation, vomiting, bloating, not emptyingflatulencealtered bowel habitsabdominal painloss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 contining foods, nutrient specific anorexiaintermittent constipationintermittant diarrheairritable bowel syndromeCrohns disease (direction of causality if any not established)Celiac disease (direction of causality if any not established) - gluten sensitivityDairy sensitivitysores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any partanorexiaBullimiareduced libido - loss of sexual desireloss of orgasmic intensityunsatisfying orgasmsinability to orgasmloss and/or change of genital sensations - "gloved" loss of sensationburning genital skin sensationunable to become arousedreduced testosteroneMENerectile disfunctionlow sperm countpoor sperm motilityPoor sperm qualityZero sperm countWOMENpost partum depressionpost partum psychosisFalse positive pap smearsmenstrual symptomsFrequent miscarriagechild with neuro tube defectsPMSpalenessrapid heart rateheart arythymiasshortness of breathheart palpitationsweak pulsecongestive heart failurearteriosclerosisWidespread pain throughout bodyHypothyroid (direction of causality if any not established)High homocysteineHigh urinary MMAdizziness - even unable to walkvertigo irritabledepressionSAD - Seasonal Affective Disordermental slowingpersonality changeschronic malaisepoor concentrationmoodinesstirednessmood swingsmemory losslistlessnessimpaired connection to othersmentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfogpsychosis, including many of the most florid psychosis seen in literature, megoblastic madnessAlzheimer'sdeliriumdementiaparanoiadelusionshallucinationsstrange "smells" that are not present like linen being ironed, burrnt odors or tidal flatsstrange "sounds" that are not presentdeja vu experiencesanxiety or tensionnervousnessmaniaimpaired executive functioncognitive impairmentmemory impairmentHypersensitivity to touchHypersensitivity to odorsHypersensitivity to tastesHypersensitivity to clothing textureHypersensitivity to chemicalsHypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symtomsHypersensitivity to sounds and noisesHypersensitivity to light and visual stimuliHypersensitivity to blood sugar changesHypersensitivity to internal metabolic changesHypersensitivity to temperature changes mild to extremely severe fatiguecontinuous extremely severe fatigueeasy fatiguabilitysevere abnormal fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to deathweaknesssleep disordersnon restorative sleeplack of dreamingNight terrorsProlonged hypnogogic state transitioning to sleepSleep paralysisalteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painfulalterations and loss of tastealterations and loss of smellloss of smell and taste of strawberries specificallyloss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specificallyroughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth in mid wordblurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden returndimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for lifeVisual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual lossoptic atophycentrocecal scotomataintolerance to bright lightdiminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possibleunclear hearing, garbledtinnitus - ringing in earsalways feeling coldintolerance to loud soundsintolerance to multiple soundsBrainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occurneural tube defect not caused by folate deficiency or child with itdemyelinated areas on nervessubacute combined degenerationaxonial degeneration of spinal cordunsteadiness of gaitataxic gait, particularly in darkpositive Rombergpositive Lhermittesneuropathies, many typesprogressive bilateral neuropathiesdemyelination of nerves - white spots on nerves on MRIsloss of detail and sensual aspects of touch all over bodyparesthesias in both feet - burning, tingling,cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etcparesthesias in both legs - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hair, pain, numbness, etcparesthesias in both hands - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etcparesthesias in both arms - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etcLoss of position sense is the most common abnormality (or vibration sense)Loss of vibration sense is the most common abnormality (or position sense)Loss of sense of joint positionhands feel gloved with loss of sensitivityfeet feel socked by loss of sensitivitytremblingneuropathic bladderunable to release bladder, mild to severeurinary incontenance - occasionally to frequentlyfecal incontinance - occasionally to frequentlysudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movementstanding with eyes closed, a slight nudge or bump causes loss of balancemost patients have signs of both spinal cord and peripheral nerve involvementThe effect on reflexes is quite variableMotor impairment may range from only mild clumsiness to a spastic paraplegiaclumsinessslowed nerve impulsesdecreased reflexesdifficulty swallowingbrisk reflexesdecreased deep tendon reflextoes turn up instead of down in reflex to sole stimulationPositive bilateral Babinski reflexFoot Dropimpaired white blood cell responsepoor resistance to infectionseasy bruisingpronounced anemiamacrocytic anemiamegablastic anemiapernicious anemiadecreased blood clottinglow hematocritMCV > 92-94 first warning, MCV > 97-100 alertelevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)elevated LDHbig fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCVplatelet disfunction, low countwhite cell changes, low counthypersegmented neutrophilsheadachesinflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs, bladderinflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries, etchigh CRP without infectionmucous becomes thick, jellied and stickydermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rashfrequent infected folliclesSeborrheic dermatitisdandruffeczemadermatitisskin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurspoor hair conditionthin nailstransverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing startssplits/sores at corners of mouthHyperhidrosisBariatric surgeryDilantin and some other medicationsRelatives, grandparant, parent, sibling, child, grandchild ever needing b12 shots or supplementcomaseizuresbrain atrophy with ileal tuberculosis preventing b12 absorbtionSTARTING AS INFANT OR CHILDdelayed myelinationfailure to thriveautismdelayed speechdepressionfrequent or continuous toncilitisfrequent strepfrequent pneumoniafrequent longlasting supposed viral illnesses that linger and linger and lingereverything goes to the lungs for extended periodsheadachesgrowing painsskin problemsdandruffallergiesasthmacontinuous swolen glands in necklow grade fever for yearsNight terrorsProlonged hypnogogic state transitioning to sleepSleep paralysisseizurescoma
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 07:12 AM
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  • Freddd:where did you get such an exhaustive list?Your fervor is what I object to.It's as if you and only you have discovered the answer to mankind's medical problems.I hate to tell you this,but you have not done so!
    richard wayne2b 1,232 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 03:10 PM
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  • Freddd:where did you get such an exhaustive list?Your fervor is what I object to.It's as if you and only you have discovered the answer to mankind's medical problems.I hate to tell you this,but you have not done so! Hi Richard, Where? I detailed that in the post above it. I merely assembled it from international sources and added a few items from experience. I haven't discovered anything, just assembled the list. Why do you have such a narrow view of b12 deficiency? With many docs having the level of ignorance and attitudes you demonstrate concerning b12 it's easy to see how I and many others couldn't be diagnosed for decades. "There are none so blind as those who will not see." When the "facts" are wrong decisions made with them are also wrong. GIGO; garbage in garbage out. It's as if you and only you have discovered the answer to mankind's medical problems That's ridiculous. However, the final form of that list will be well footnoted and quite bulletproof. All I've done in any of this is to read a lot of journals and other sources, listen to other folks with my problems who found answers, do a few small experiments myself and combine all of the forementioned. And it involves one small group of people who's problems are not being solved institutionally. The question I am answering is one asked of me by several docs through the years; "What makes you different from my other patients in that you don't get well?" I answered that by getting well. When I became too disabled to keep working about 7 years ago I made this solving of my problem my next project. In fact I did what Andy Grove (co-founder of Intel) spoke about in a talk he gave reported in a December Time magazine. Instead of throwing out something because it worked on only x% of the people, I've identified the x% on which it works and found many of the causes of inconsistant response in a very narrow area. If you think that includes all of mankind's medical problems, you are allowed to think that or anything else. Don't project your thoughts it on me and use them as a strawman. To me it looks like it applies mostly to a few percent that are concentrated at these forums because they have not gotten answers that allow them to heal elsewhere. Institutional blindness destroyed my health and life. It was doing the same to my children. It is doing the same to many other people. Why do you appear so intent on maintaining that institutional ignorance and blindness? Why are you an apparant stakeholder in maintaining ignorance?
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 06:21 PM
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  • Freddd:where did you get such an exhaustive list?Your fervor is what I object to.It's as if you and only you have discovered the answer to mankind's medical problems.I hate to tell you this,but you have not done so! I have another question for you Richard. How am I supposed to do this? Get your permission or something?
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 10, 2009
    • 08:11 PM
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  • Dearv Freddd:I have no interest in the perpetuation of ignorance of any kind,whether it relates to B12 or not.Therefore,I resent your question. Next,you listed a myriad of symptoms due,allegedly,to B12 deficiencywithout one shred of information as to where you got them.Then you told me that you developed your ''rare'' insight into the B12 phenomenon via your own experiences and talking to others.As a scientist I am supposed to be skeptical.Therefore,where are your double-blind studies,your published article on said B12 problem,especially in peer-reviewed literature.***l,man,all you have is a lot of anecdotal crap which is far from scientific.Too,it would add to your credibility to have a hematologist join you in your endeavors. Personally,I hope you're right because it would be so beneficial to so many people,but I can't stand idly by and let you ''rape and pillage''that which should be done in a scientific manner.
    richard wayne2b 1,232 Replies
    • January 11, 2009
    • 04:49 PM
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  • Dearv Freddd:I have no interest in the perpetuation of ignorance of any kind,whether it relates to B12 or not.Therefore,I resent your question..... Personally,I hope you're right because it would be so beneficial to so many people,but I can't stand idly by and let you ''rape and pillage''that which should be done in a scientific manner. Hi Richard, You are right. There are studies that need to be done. However, without this information I'd most likely be dead by now. The list of symptoms, signs and co-correlates are from lists such as those from national healthcare services and such from around the world. In final form these will all be footnoted. If you really look at the list you will see that some of the things are merely co-correlates, such as hypothyroid generally and on some lists also Hashimotto's specifically though there is disagreement about that. I haven't seen any research indicating why hypothyroid is so common amongst those with funtional b12 deficiencies, but it is. The symptoms and signs, as profuse as they appear to be, actually come down to just several categories which connect quite plainly and well documented to b12 deficiencies. There are the mitochondrial malfunctions in producing ATP, one of which is indicated by high uMMA. Normal uMMA does not define adequacy. This is shown by research as specifically caused by adenosylb12 or cofactor shortage. Not all mito problems are caused by this set but some certainly are. Research currently under way is finding lactic acid as well but that isn't complete yet. Another large set of symtoms involve epithelial and endothelial cell reproduction breakdowns, whatever system in the body they occur in. These are well established in literature. High Hcy can be indicative of methylb12 and/or methylfolate shortage but normal Hcy does not define adequacy. Then there are neurological and neuropsychiatric malfuctions. Again, these are well established but not well understood. All cell formation in the body is absolutely dependent upon DNA replication which is absolutely dependent on methylb12/methylfolate. Methylb12 plays a big role in inflammation however it's full interaction with NO and the inflammatory responses are just beginning to be investigated. Then there are the hemotological problems well known to be caused by b12 deficiency. I didn't make those up. I'm just quoting the journal articles and various normally respected lists and diagnostic guides. Sleep disorders which are most likely in the neuropsychiatric along with sensory changes, mood and personality changes are all well establised. When you remove all those categories, there isn't much left on the list. I understand that it may be a bit of a shock to see an international list and that there is such an extreme variation by country as to the individual lists, but there is. Also, it's sad to say that not one of my dentists or dental hygenists, all of whom have been trained to recognize the oral hallmark symptoms of b12 deficiency, recognized mine. When asked it was "Oops, I learned that in school, I forgot, sorry". When all the gastroenterologists, neurologists, ENTs, internists, etc that I have seen through the years failed to recognize my deficiencies, which responded promptly and very well to supplementation by active b12s (I had been taking cyanob12 1mg for decades), it's more than disappointing, it's an institutional blindness. It cost me just about everything in my life. I have recovered spectacularly. It just so happens that I have been in the business of recognizing such blindnesses, mistakes and fraud in the data since 1982. Doing an error analysis on my own case, and many incorrect diagnosis and treatments that were all side effect and no benefits, and those of my children and a number of other folks, all points at a massive institutional bias in not recognizing active b12/folate responsive symptoms. There is a lot of good research out there but there is also a lot of bad research. Research is a form of asking questions. If the wrong questions are asked, or the right questions asked poorly, the answers are of low quality. The environment I'm used to working in is that of having full data from an HMO or insurance company. Having lost just about everything due to disability caused by these deficiencies, I don't have the money to fund the hiring of a hemotologist or anything else. I have and will continue to consult with a number of researchers who after all are the ones who need to do the studies to explain the results some years in the future. I will have a fully footnoted version of that list in the not too distant future along with a computerized scoring system for that list as questionaire. You are clearly bothered by not knowing the "why" of the very clear pragmatically determined results. There is no "rape and pilliage" going on. There are quite a few people whose lives are being changed by having this information, most of which I received from other people. I am healthy now at 60 for the first time in my life. I have no more mysterious undiagnosable health problems. I went from 175 of those symptoms, signs and co-correlates 6 years ago to 27 left now, all of known causes such as a car wreck or subacute combined degeneration and some of those are currently healing. Instead of having to deal with health problems constantly I have to deal with rebuilding a life and business. There are top-down, bottom-up and middle-out approaches to this problem. Letting people know that some of the ones that are consistantly wrongly treated, maltreated, called names by docs who can't figure out what is going on and whose life is sufferring is a bottom-up approach and is what I can afford at the moment. The way medical records are kept, or not kept, is a major part of the problem. I, and anybody like me, can't be diagnosed from our medical records, even if they were 100% available and consolodated, which they are not. This is something I can influence and even change as that is part of my business and experience. Doctors have a difficult time making accurate diagnosis' with only partial and often incorrect data. There is going to be a lot of competition in this changeover to electronic medical records and data mining. That's good as it will improve the results. Those of us doing such don't have to protect past research and justify past mistakes and inadequacies. It's bringing whole new players into the arena. Just for a moment try something, allow that I could just be essentially correct in my premises including the list. A simple 3 month trial with a cost of $25-$50, far less than most testing, will demonstrate in the majority of those who could benefit, that they do benefit. It won't be complete. A single dose challange of people with these symptoms will be effective in about 2/3s or so of those who respond on the longer test. Neither will catch those whose problems are purely limited to any of several specific relatively expensive cofactors, but with a couple of cofactors chosen based on test results and symptoms and a few basics, most folks affected will have sufficient results to merit digging deeper or they will have no results at all. It's an easy and inexpensive hypothesis to test. The hypothesis is not something that has to remain untested and forever unknowable. The results are often about as subtle as a sledge hammer and usually begin promptly. Of course this does rest upon the top of some effort. I ran a series of comparitive tests of 11 brands with 5 hypersensitives and found 3 brands that produced strong reliable and predictable results, one that had no apparant activity at all and 7 that were mediocre thus removing one obstacle to obtaining predictable results. I ran a series of tests using urine colorimetry comparing injections to sublingual absorbtion establishing an absorbtion rate for a method of administration. I designed a serum level simulator from pharmacokinetic data from a literature survey. In the 5.5 years since starting methylb12 I have identified many of the reasons why methylb12 and adenosylb12 might not be effective, such as 7 showstopper supplements whose absence can prevent effectiveness as well as the other essential supplements for effective broadbased healing. Also, as the literature states, methylb12 aqueous is unstable and I have found storage and handling procedures to keep it effective and potent over the course of a month. As I am hypersensitive I can tell quickly when it isn't effective. It was much like debugging a computer program because of the rapid feedback. At this point the selection of nutrients can and does produce predictable results in a substantial percentage of persons who have a selection off symptoms from that list you don't care for. The additional nutrients were all chosen based on peer reviewed research AND effectiveness in people. On a pragmatic level the selection by symptoms works well in predicitng who will have results on a single dose challange or a longer 3 month trial. If you had a friend or family member whose health you could improve dramatically by taking a few vitamins wouldn't you want to know? Apply a little game theory and cost/benefit analysis. The cost of testing the hypothesis could be as little as 50 cents and no more than $50. The benefit is restoration of health and/or continued life itself, which for the person for whom it happens is immensely valuable. For what percentage of people does that have to pay off on for it to be cost effective? Having this available to me in 1987 would have been at least a $2,000,000 in 1987 dollars and 20 years of good health as payoff. As I say, you can test this hypothesis yourself in people you know. There are no subtle lab tests needed to see results. I'm not the dolt that you appear to think me, "rape and pilliage" indeed.
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 11, 2009
    • 09:34 PM
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  • Cont:Now, just to clear up a couple of things, in talking with researchers I was told by several that it is not possible (in the USA) to have a trial with 40 or so supplements, that it would never "pass an institutional review board". It would appear that it could take decades to work up to being able to do this study within institutional science and medicine the way things are currently done. Further as all the vitamins and other supplements are on the established commercial market there is no way short of the Codex Alimentarus being enforced in the USA for any company to make billions and billions off of this at the expense of our health. It would be a disaster for health and the healthcare system to turn $200/month worth of free market vitamins into $2000/month worth of controlled prescriptions. There is not the financial incentive to investigate this, nothing to patent so far. Why don't you go over to the mentioned b12 forum on wrongdiagnosis and talk with the many people there having various degrees of success with a selection of these supplements. Within a year or so data will be collected that will enable us to pin some numbers on some of the questions linking symptoms etc with supplements and results. As these supplements are working better for most than anything else they have ever tried, are working pretty much as described and predicted, you may find it difficult to persuade the various people that they are not really having these results. I can't be so persuaded nor can my children. Kevin, up out of a wheelchair and back to work won't be persuadable either. Many of the people such as myself and my children have served as our own controls by having taken the basic vitamins and/or cyanob12/hydroxyb12 with little effect or worse, in a multitude of n=1 longitudinal crossover studies. Combining the data from a thousand or so of these n=1 selfstudies will give a whole lot of data including cost savings from discontinued medications and decreased services and which symptoms on the list are most predictive of positive effects. I would certainly expect you to be skeptical and welcome it. You and others like you serve an important purpose on a forum like this. There is a lot of nonsense and extremely low probability ideas promoted by various folks as I know you have run into. There are multilevel marketing programs built around some of the supplements in propriatary mixtures at high prices as "exclusive" solutions to problems. I never mention those. I have given away thousands of tablets of the two active b12s one at a time and observed the results. I am very skeptical myself. As it is said "Theory in physics changes one funeral at a time". There is a certain urgency in gaining a constituancy of sufficient size to prevent Codex Alimentarus from taking over the world and locking up all the natural and effective vitamins and supplements. It is possible that the USA could be the only holdout in which freedom of nutrition is maintained. This is the all too real politics of the situation. The answer to skepticism is to investigate. In this particular circumstance the effects I am speaking about are easily, predictably and repeatably demonstrated from written directions.
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • January 12, 2009
    • 08:08 AM
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  • My mother took vitamin B12 shots monthly for years (or was supposed to). Let me rephrase; as I was growing whenever she would get to feeling bad she would say it was time for her to go get her B12 shot; therefore, I would see the difference it would make in her. I wish she would have taken them monthly but that was before health insurance paid for doctor visits (even though they were cheaper back then but still you did have to pay for them) and she at least said she couldn't always afford it (I know; what's more important that your health). Then she got old enough to get on Medicare and (at least as I understand it) it did pay for them so she did begin to get them every month and I could really tell the difference in her overall health; then she said they quit (at least that's what she said when she told me she wasn't getting them anymore). Again I could tell the difference in her overall health; it really began to decline. Her mental acuity began to go down. Now by then my dad's was, too, even though he'd never had any problem with that or with anything so had never had B12 injections. However, his medical care was through the VA and he was diagnosed with a condition and put on medication which seemed to cause his mental condition to really deteriorate. We would tell the specialist about and he would just dismiss us as it being his age (funny he wasn't like that before). Finally he left (or was dismissed - we never could really find out which) and he began to see a P.A. who listened to us and ordered him to have monthly B12 injections (and no, she didn't run a bunch of - at least new- tests first - he was, however, already having monthly (which she did increase to bi-weekly) complete blood counts (CBC) and the difference was dramatic. He is much more alert. My mother and I talked about this both regarding him and her, which is when she told me Medicare wouldn't pay for them anymore. She did talk about getting them anyway at the time but then didn't. She then had a dramatic drop recently while at the same time having a UTI to the extent that when my dad took her to the doc (she doesn't drive anymore - at least for now - a whole other issue) he told him about it and he put her on the "brain med" (which shot her blood pressure up so we took her off) while also giving her an antibiotic for her UTI. By the time we had the issue with the brain med she was almost through with her UTI med and we didn't have a dramatic reversal in her mental acuity. However, with this UTI med (Cipro) she didn't completely recover from her UTI symptoms so I took her (back) to her urologist (not her primary who gave her the med) and had her a culture done which they say came back clear (am waiting for a call from them now which is why I'm here when I found you, Fredd). I believe this could well be a case of vitamin B12 deficiency which could clear up a lot. Yes, I do believe there are numerous correlations with vitamin B12; at least my family is one more case of having seen it happen. I'm eager to hear what the doc might have to say or at least to see if we can get it done. I've definitely seen a change in what they would do over the years; they used to be much more amenable to treatments like that where now they do seem to be much more wanting to give you some more pharmaceutical treatment.
    Anonymous 42,789 Replies
    • November 6, 2009
    • 07:35 PM
    • 0
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  • My mother took vitamin B12 shots monthly for years (or was supposed to). Let me rephrase; as I was growing whenever she would get to feeling bad she would say it was time for her to go get her B12 shot; therefore, I would see the difference it would make in her. I wish she would have taken them monthly but that was before health insurance paid for doctor visits (even though they were cheaper back then but still you did have to pay for them) and she at least said she couldn't always afford it (I know; what's more important that your health). Then she got old enough to get on Medicare and (at least as I understand it) it did pay for them so she did begin to get them every month and I could really tell the difference in her overall health; then she said they quit (at least that's what she said when she told me she wasn't getting them anymore). Again I could tell the difference in her overall health; it really began to decline. Her mental acuity began to go down. Now by then my dad's was, too, even though he'd never had any problem with that or with anything so had never had B12 injections. However, his medical care was through the VA and he was diagnosed with a condition and put on medication which seemed to cause his mental condition to really deteriorate. We would tell the specialist about and he would just dismiss us as it being his age (funny he wasn't like that before). Finally he left (or was dismissed - we never could really find out which) and he began to see a P.A. who listened to us and ordered him to have monthly B12 injections (and no, she didn't run a bunch of - at least new- tests first - he was, however, already having monthly (which she did increase to bi-weekly) complete blood counts (CBC) and the difference was dramatic. He is much more alert. My mother and I talked about this both regarding him and her, which is when she told me Medicare wouldn't pay for them anymore. She did talk about getting them anyway at the time but then didn't. She then had a dramatic drop recently while at the same time having a UTI to the extent that when my dad took her to the doc (she doesn't drive anymore - at least for now - a whole other issue) he told him about it and he put her on the "brain med" (which shot her blood pressure up so we took her off) while also giving her an antibiotic for her UTI. By the time we had the issue with the brain med she was almost through with her UTI med and we didn't have a dramatic reversal in her mental acuity. However, with this UTI med (Cipro) she didn't completely recover from her UTI symptoms so I took her (back) to her urologist (not her primary who gave her the med) and had her a culture done which they say came back clear (am waiting for a call from them now which is why I'm here when I found you, Fredd). I believe this could well be a case of vitamin B12 deficiency which could clear up a lot. Yes, I do believe there are numerous correlations with vitamin B12; at least my family is one more case of having seen it happen. I'm eager to hear what the doc might have to say or at least to see if we can get it done. I've definitely seen a change in what they would do over the years; they used to be much more amenable to treatments like that where now they do seem to be much more wanting to give you some more pharmaceutical treatment. Hi Unregistered, If you were to register then your posts would be accessable via your name in any ongoing discussions. http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?p=203488#post203488 Come on over to the B12 discussion forum listed above and repost your information. It takes about a day after you make a post for it to appear after a new registration. I would like to mention that the effective brands of methylb12 taken via the effective methods is 100 to 1000 or more times more active and effective than cyanob12 injections.http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?t=62327 This thread can give you the basics, start and read 7, 8, and 9 then look at the symotoms list and other things. Take the discussion to the main b12 thread first referenced.
    Freddd 3,576 Replies
    • November 7, 2009
    • 08:25 PM
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