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Vegan and B12 issue

Posted In: Medical Stories 9 Replies
  • Posted By: Anonymous
  • September 14, 2008
  • 02:45 PM

Hi,

I have been having some nausea and dizziness for 5 days. Here is how it started.

1) A month and a half ago I began experimenting with eating strictly vegan. I had had some allergic reactions to animal products -- I had tried selectively removing meat or dairy and ate little animal products, but never went below 50g meat/day, no dairy no eggs. I did that strict vegan experiment without any B12 supplementation because I had read it took years to deplete the body's B12 stores, but after only a month of it, I noticed very clear problems of concentration and irritability.

2) I had dairy and meat, and the symptoms disappeared within 24 hours. A week later I started the strict vegan experiment again, but with B12 supplements bought in a pharmacy (250 mcg of cyanocobalamin, one per day). After 10 days, I felt a comeback of the old symptoms (concentration and irritability, although not as strong as before -- it had only been 10 days), but more importantly I felt some nausea and dizziness, which I hadn't felt before when not supplementing with cyanocobalamin.

I decided that the vegan experiment was over -- doesn't work for me. I ate meat and dairy, the concentration and irritability problems went away immediately as before, but the dizziness and nausea are still there, 5 days later.

I have read that cyanocobalamin releases cyanide (as the name indicates) and can cause cyanide toxicity. Is it possible that my symptoms are caused by the B12 tablets, or did that period of veganism do irreversible damage? What can I do?

Any help very much appreciated.

PS: the dizziness symptom is strange: every 5 seconds I feel a wave of dizziness coming, as if there was some blood pressure thing going on. It feels exactly the same when, after crouching in an awkward position for 15 minutes, I suddenly stand: the blood has trouble reaching the brain and I feel the same dizziness (I have been having this "dizziness on standing" symptom for as long as I can remember, doctors said it was nothing and my mother has it too).

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  • Hi, I have been having some nausea and dizziness for 5 days. Here is how it started. 1) A month and a half ago I began experimenting with eating strictly vegan. I had had some allergic reactions to animal products -- I had tried selectively removing meat or dairy and ate little animal products, but never went below 50g meat/day, no dairy no eggs. I did that strict vegan experiment without any B12 supplementation because I had read it took years to deplete the body's B12 stores, but after only a month of it, I noticed very clear problems of concentration and irritability. 2) I had dairy and meat, and the symptoms disappeared within 24 hours. A week later I started the strict vegan experiment again, but with B12 supplements bought in a pharmacy (250 mcg of cyanocobalamin, one per day). After 10 days, I felt a comeback of the old symptoms (concentration and irritability, although not as strong as before -- it had only been 10 days), but more importantly I felt some nausea and dizziness, which I hadn't felt before when not supplementing with cyanocobalamin. I decided that the vegan experiment was over -- doesn't work for me. I ate meat and dairy, the concentration and irritability problems went away immediately as before, but the dizziness and nausea are still there, 5 days later. I have read that cyanocobalamin releases cyanide (as the name indicates) and can cause cyanide toxicity. Is it possible that my symptoms are caused by the B12 tablets, or did that period of veganism do irreversible damage? What can I do? Any help very much appreciated. PS: the dizziness symptom is strange: every 5 seconds I feel a wave of dizziness coming, as if there was some blood pressure thing going on. It feels exactly the same when, after crouching in an awkward position for 15 minutes, I suddenly stand: the blood has trouble reaching the brain and I feel the same dizziness (I have been having this "dizziness on standing" symptom for as long as I can remember, doctors said it was nothing and my mother has it too). Hi Mike,You symtoms are clearly b12 deficiency symptoms. I felt the difference from the very first day without meat. It's a decrease of both b12 and carnitine which ends up shutting off the mitochondria when it gets bad enough. A combo of sublingual methylb12 and adenosylb12 plus b-complex should make you a happy camper again. There is no storage. The b12 just slowly leaches out of the tissues day by day. You are clearly on the edge to begin with and began an immediagte decline that will keep going down for far longer than you might believe. The cyanide would be clearewd up immediately with one sublingual methylb12 if any re,ains in your body. The amount is trivial that you took and not likely to cause a direct problem. However, cyanob12 depletes SAM-e which depletes your energy quickly. It's a myth that the body has "stores". The protein bound b12 is just slow to leak away. However it looks like to me that yours leaks away faster than ideal anyway which is why you were right on the edge. You probably need to supplement for life if you want full energy and a clear brain and to get rid of your symptoms. For some of us who can barely maintain by eating meat, I had lots of symtoms even then, supplemenmtation is a must for health. And stay away from the inactive cobalamins. They don't work well. Methylb12 is a good 1000 times or more active than cyanob12.
    Freddd 3576 Replies
    • September 20, 2008
    • 03:31 PM
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  • Thanks for your reply.The symptoms have almost completely disappeared, but it took 7-8 days. I get the impression that, when I am at rest, the symptoms have not cleared entirely, but what remains - if it exists - is very small.As I said I started to eat normal amounts meat and low-fat milk (butter and cheese give me allergic/irritation symptoms -- I suppose you can get everything that is necessary in them by just drinking milk). If I am eating only milk and meat, what would you say is a minimum per day to have a fully functional body and brain, without any supplementation (in grams/day)?Thank you.
    Anonymous 42789 Replies
    • September 20, 2008
    • 06:55 PM
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  • Thanks for your reply. The symptoms have almost completely disappeared, but it took 7-8 days. I get the impression that, when I am at rest, the symptoms have not cleared entirely, but what remains - if it exists - is very small. As I said I started to eat normal amounts meat and low-fat milk (butter and cheese give me allergic/irritation symptoms -- I suppose you can get everything that is necessary in them by just drinking milk). If I am eating only milk and meat, what would you say is a minimum per day to have a fully functional body and brain, without any supplementation (in grams/day)? Thank you. Hi Mike, From a listing. Who knows how accurate. I saw some recent tests on liver that indicate that liver may not have as much b12 as older information may indicate. Some research indicates that liver content of b12 may be down 95% from 30 years ago. Vitamin B12 Content of FoodFOOD Vitamin B12 (mcg)Liver, beef, 3.5 oz ---------112Clams, steamed, 3.5 oz,------99Oysters, raw, 3 oz-----------16Crab, cooked, 3 oz------------9Trout, cooked, 3.5 oz---------5Tuna, light, canned, 3.5 oz----1.8Low fat yogurt, 1 cup---------1.4Milk, nonfat, 1 cup -------------.93Frankfurters, beef, 1------------.88Pork chop, broiled, 3.5 oz--------.6Egg, cooked--------------------.50Cheese, provolone, 1 oz---------.41Chicken, white meat, 3.5 oz-----.36Chicken, dark meat, 3.5 oz------.32Cheddar cheese, 1 oz-----------.24 Here is a listing from http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/nutrition/factsheets/vitamin-b12.html As you can see there is not much in most animal foods and none in anything else. If I were you, considering how quickly you went into deficiency state I wouldn't depend on food. Also, be aware that ONLY liver contains methylb12, all the rest is adenosylb12. Each one has it's own deficiency states. You appear to be borderline deficienct even eating meat and such. Being only a little deficient for the rest of your life is a sure route to neurological deterioration, lack of energy and possibly much worse. Also, b12 efficiency tends to drop with age. About half of Americans over 65 appear to be at least a bit funtionally deficient without any obvious pathology to cause it. If I had a warning like this in my twenties and the natural b12s available, I would not have had 30 years of my life trashed by b12 deficiencies. Here I am at 60 starting all over again; new business, new girl friend, no assets; and 30 years of unendurable pain, misery and debilitation. You have had a warning shot across the bow. Pay attention and don't follow in my downward path to destruction. My life was destroyed by what started out as a borderline condition not as severe as yours. Good luck.
    Freddd 3576 Replies
    • September 20, 2008
    • 11:45 PM
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  • Fred,I don't want to take any supplements because my current problem began with them. As I said above, after I stopped my first experiment with veganism (>1 month, without supplements) I didn't have any symptoms at all. When I started the second one, with daily B12 supplements bought in a pharmacy, my problem began very quickly -- actually I remember going to bed feeling a bit nauseous only 2-3 days after the beginning of the experiment and not thinking much of it. So there is no doubt that these symptoms were caused by the supplements. Moreover I've read on vegan forums about other people feeling dizzy from B12 supplements.For that reason I'd rather not mess with B12 supplements again.
    Anonymous 42789 Replies
    • September 21, 2008
    • 02:38 PM
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  • Fred, I don't want to take any supplements because my current problem began with them. As I said above, after I stopped my first experiment with veganism (>1 month, without supplements) I didn't have any symptoms at all. When I started the second one, with daily B12 supplements bought in a pharmacy, my problem began very quickly -- actually I remember going to bed feeling a bit nauseous only 2-3 days after the beginning of the experiment and not thinking much of it. So there is no doubt that these symptoms were caused by the supplements. Moreover I've read on vegan forums about other people feeling dizzy from B12 supplements. For that reason I'd rather not mess with B12 supplements again. Hi Mike, What I am trying to explain is that you appear to respond like me to B12. CYANOb12 makes me sick, just like YOU. Methylb12/adenosylb12 make me well, very well, the healthiest in my entire life, and I'm 60. You appear to be on the borderline, not eating meat hits you quickly and cyanob12 makes you sick. BINGO! Now please try something. Take a look at the symptoms list. How many of those do you have or have you had. I mean everything ever, but especially the past 6 months. Don't limit it to just the things currently changing. Good luck.
    Freddd 3576 Replies
    • September 21, 2008
    • 06:10 PM
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  • Fred,If by "symptoms list" you mean what is mentioned in your link http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu...tamin-b12.html Numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, stiffness and weakness in the legs, and an unsteady gait are often observed. In the elderly, vitamin B12 deficiency is characterized by mental disorientation, memory loss, and a yellowish tint to the skin due to concurrent anemia and jaundice. then I've never had any. I do have orthostatic hypotension as I wrote above. During my (stupid) vegan experiment (I'll never do that again), I didn't have any of those either, but I did have very clear trouble concentrating. The second time, when I took cyanob12, I had this nausea and dizziness very quickly, which has now 'almost' disappeared -- I easily forget it when I am engulfed in doing something but when I concentrate on it, I feel it somewhat.You said CYANOb12 made you sick: what does it do to you (does it involve nausea and dizziness) and for how long after you stop taking it?
    Anonymous 42789 Replies
    • September 21, 2008
    • 10:19 PM
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  • Fred, If by "symptoms list" you mean what is mentioned in your link http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu...tamin-b12.html then I've never had any. I do have orthostatic hypotension as I wrote above. During my (stupid) vegan experiment (I'll never do that again), I didn't have any of those either, but I did have very clear trouble concentrating. The second time, when I took cyanob12, I had this nausea and dizziness very quickly, which has now 'almost' disappeared -- I easily forget it when I am engulfed in doing something but when I concentrate on it, I feel it somewhat. You said CYANOb12 made you sick: what does it do to you (does it involve nausea and dizziness) and for how long after you stop taking it? Hi Mike, I mean the relatively complete list I assembledm from a lot of lists and symtoms that can resolve with methylb12/adenosylb12 and cofactors. It has gottne pretty far back on the b12 thread so I'm going to post it again in just a minute, the newest version.
    Freddd 3576 Replies
    • September 21, 2008
    • 11:19 PM
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  • Fred,I checked the whole list.When I as eating wheat I had canker sores, abdominal pain and diarrhea regularly (nothing life-threatening though), never happened since I stopped it.I have dairy sensitivity -- I take longer to get to sleep and have some headaches when I eat a lot of dairy. I've had slight tinnitus for years, and it gets worse with dairy.During my vegan experiment, I had reduced libido, irritability & poor concentration (now back to normal). I think I had a brain fog episode during the second vegan experiment (with cyanob12), the weird feeling of witnessing your own actions from the outside, as the actions of someone else: being 'inside your head' looking at yourself doing stuff.I am curious as to what symptoms you have from cyanob12 and in how much time they go away.
    Anonymous 42789 Replies
    • September 22, 2008
    • 00:52 AM
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  • Fred, I checked the whole list. When I as eating wheat I had canker sores, abdominal pain and diarrhea regularly (nothing life-threatening though), never happened since I stopped it. I have dairy sensitivity -- I take longer to get to sleep and have some headaches when I eat a lot of dairy. I've had slight tinnitus for years, and it gets worse with dairy. During my vegan experiment, I had reduced libido, irritability & poor concentration (now back to normal). I think I had a brain fog episode during the second vegan experiment (with cyanob12), the weird feeling of witnessing your own actions from the outside, as the actions of someone else: being 'inside your head' looking at yourself doing stuff. I am curious as to what symptoms you have from cyanob12 and in how much time they go away. My first experience with cyanob12 was in 1962. I had very sore teeth after having my braces adjusted. My mother decided that would be a good time to put me on Metracal to force weightloss. She had been restricting my meats for quite a while. The more she restricted my meats the more bloated and waterlogged I became, the more weight I gained. I had my first crash and first pneumonia shortly there after. I ended up sick for 4 months that year. I had crashes like this over and over during my years taking cyanob12 finally ending up with a 16 year continuous crash while taking the largest cyanob12 doses I had ever taken, 1mg or more per day. While I'm taking methylb12, cyanob12 doesn't appear to have any effect in small quantities. Without methylb12 it makes my mucous thick and sticky and I end up sick and with a pneumonia eventually. I had up to 100 symptoms at a time off of that list and almost that many when I started methylb12. I am now, 5.3 years after starting methylb12, pretty well recovered. 25 years of disability and inability to exercise takes it's toll. Even my numb feet are healing now with the new injection protocol. That cyanob12 throws you into deficiency is significant. It does that to me too. The hypothecized reason is that the cyanob12 depletes the SAM-e of which I was already short. That's just a hypothesis. Without extensive testing of folks like us we can't know. Mike, I can't prove anything to you. I can demonstrate the effects of these nutriants in my body as can you. Since you had such a bad experience with cyanob12 I would think that you would like to have a correspondingly good experience with the real genuine human active b12s. Just because cyanob12 is a personal poison for you doesn't mean that methylb12/adenosylb12 is. In fact methylb12 mops up the cyanide and excretes it in the form of cyanob12. Methylb12 detoxifies the body and nervous system.
    Freddd 3576 Replies
    • September 23, 2008
    • 04:50 PM
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