Discussions By Condition: I cannot get a diagnosis.

Abdomen/right groin/testicle pain, 18 months HELP!!!

Posted In: I cannot get a diagnosis. 22 Replies
  • Posted By: mholmes
  • May 30, 2008
  • 05:02 AM

Hello,

My first post here, thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this. I apologize for the lengthy post.

I was in perfect health when one day I experienced a "Pop" sensation while having a bowel movement. Instantly I had a feeling of total paralyzation over my genitals for about 15 minutes. it cleared up and I was left with a dull pain in my right testicle for about 2 weeks. At this point the pain began to intensify, spreading from my right testicle and groin up to just below my lowest rib on the right side, to the point where, despite having no health insurance at the time, I had no choice but to go to the hospital to get it looked at. The pain was so intense that I was certain that I had something life threatening going on.

The doctor said he was unsure, but thought I may have a urinary tract infection, and gave me a short course of antibiotics. This improved my condition immensely in just a matter of several hours, and by the end of the next day, i was pretty sure I was going to recover fully. After another 2 weeks, the pain began to intensify once again, and I visited another doctor, who ordered a CT of my Abdomen and pelvis, and multiple blood and urine tests. $1500 cash for the CT, and no unusual findings in the CT or any of the other tests. he gave me another longer course of antibiotics and said to come back in 2 weeks. The antibiotics seemed to have little or no effect.

At this time, I started to experience one of my bad lower back episodes that I get once every couple years. When I returned to the doctor, he ordered an MRI of my lumbar spine. The result was a "small annular tear" on the l4-l5 and l5-S1 discs and "Mild" disc space narrowing on a couple of the vertebrae, but "no frank impingement of exiting nerve roots". (or what I like to call, a perfectly normal 30 year old working man's back). Nevertheless, "referred nerve pain" became the official explanation for all of my problems for the next year and a half.

You know when you just have a "gut" feeling that you're getting screwed? Well, that's kind of the feeling I have about this nerve pain explanation. I don't doubt that some people have this, but I'm not one of them, I just know it in my gut., literally! haha. It was impossible to get my doctors to think outside this box at all, probably due to the fact that it is an easy "catch-all" explanation, with no available means for testing, proving, or disproving. (just like when people go to the doctor with phony back pain so they can get pills, but in reverse, lol)

To try and condense the story as much as possible, I've seen urologists, GI guys, regular internal medicine and family doctors, spine specialists... and paid money hand over fist for a year and a half and have had absolutely no real diagnosis or proposal to do anything to FIX THE PROBLEM. until.......

2 months ago, I was so depressed and angry about this continuous pain, and I was searching the net for possible solutions. Inguinal Hernia kept popping up practically every time I searched my symptoms. I made an appt. to see the doctor and I demanded that he order an ultrasound of my pelvic area to check for a hernia. He was really dismissive, but agreed to order the test. I HAVE been given a physical exam for hernia on multiple occasions, and they didn't feel anything.

The ultrasound tech showed me what she was looking at on the screen, and there was a "blob" like object smooshing up and down through the inguinal canal as i did the "bear down" maneuver. She said that this was in fact a small (approx 1/2 CM) hernia, and it could absolutely be the cause of my pain. She confirmed this with her supervisor as well. I wanted to kiss the ultrasound tech, lol.

They scheduled a surgical consult, and the surgeon (without even looking at the images) read the report and said "that's not your problem." He completely dismissed the possibility of a hernia, due to the fact that he didn't feel anything upon his physical examination. He went on to more or less imply that ultrasound techs are stupid and they see things all the time that are false positives (swear to god). This was easily the most depressing moment of my entire life.

He ordered ANOTHER CT of my abdomen and pelvis. This too came back negative, and identical to the first. He set up an appointment to see another GI doc. $2K more on my tab, and the medical merry go round starts once again for me.

I was examined again last weekend by another Ultrasound tech (awesome guy, my sister works in the radiology office with him at another hospital) He confirmed the presence of an unidentified mass of material in the right inguinal canal, and said he wasn't sure if it was "bowel, fat, or Omentum" but he assured me that it was totally abnormal, and agreed that it was most certainly related to the pain I'm having in some way. He said that it was good because the object didn't appear to be "incarcerated" in any way. He also checked my liver, gallbladder, bile ducts, and bladder which all looked OK.


So, That's where I'm at. Just a hardcore stabbing pain that travels from my ribs down to the groin/right testicle. It's been the same for a year and 2-3 months. It's worse for a day or two following a large meal. I've started to also experience a lot of mysterious pain in my upper back, and a general feeling of being "worn out" all the time, like an arthritis kind of feeling, and I know they are side effects of whatever is going on in my gut. I suspect that something may be torn or out of place in my abdomen, and it's poking down through the inguinal canal or something?. It has to be. But hey, I've said that so many times now I can't even keep count.

I'd really appreciate any comments anyone may have. My life has been an absolute living ***l for almost a year and a half, and there is no end in sight.

Thanks,
Matt

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22 Replies:

  • Hi MattIt does sound like a classic case of inguinal hernia. What I suspect is happening in your case, is that the size of the hernia is so small, that for most of the time the bowel is not protruding through the hole. However, when you have a bowel movement, cough heavily or lift, it may be enough to cause the bowel to herniate slightly. The problem with this, as you've found out, is that the tests will be "normal" unless they can either re-create the problem, or if the herniated bowel is in place at the time of scanning. At least it seems that the last scan showed some evidence of the problem. Keep persevering and hopefully you will get a firm diagnosis and treatment very soon.
    Anonymous 42789 Replies Flag this Response
  • Thanks a lot for the kind words, and for taking the time to read my long post. I think you're right. All of the symptoms and circumstances surrounding this injury point to hernia, and out of all of the tests that I've had done, the only thing that has any real significant findings is the ultrasound for hernia, and I've had 3 different US techs say there is a hernia there. I am seeing a new doctor on Monday, and I to wipe the slate clean, so to speak. I don't want this guy getting confused by any of my previous false diagnoses, and I don't want him to get sidetracked. I think I'm going to just print out the post above, and hand it to him lol. Do you have any recommendations on how to effectively communicate my concerns to this guy in a way where he will investigate the hernia possibility further? What would be the next logical way to confirm this diagnosis, some kind of investigative surgery? herniography? Every doctor I've seen has been under the "if I don't feel it, there's no problem" school of thought. Can all hernias be felt or seen on CT? Have you ever heard of a hernia causing widespread feelings of lethargy or upper/mid back soreness? I ask because I've had these symptoms for quite a while now, and I am certain that they are related to this pain in my abdomen and pelvis. In what way, i don't know. Take care, Matt
    mholmes 3 Replies Flag this Response
  • Matt,I don’t have much knowledge about hernia, so I might be totally off track here, but I wonder if you possibly see any varicose veins in your groin or scrotum. Sometimes a varicose vein can cause similar symptoms; I am more thinking of the internal veins in your pelvis, not only the superficial ones. These veins depend upon healthy valves and once the valves are not tight, it can result in pain because of blood reflux. Could this possibly be a clue? This requires a vascular surgeon. Good luck!
    Felsen 510 Replies Flag this Response
  • Matt, By coincidence, I happen to read your post. I've had the same symptoms, except that I'm female. Another difference is that I've just received a definitive, positive diagnosis: I have parasites. Your hernia theory may be correct. But the "blob" seen by the ultrasound tech: Could it have been a fluke? In my case, it was. Have you traveled or worked abroad? Or served in Iraq or the Gulf War? If so, you may have been exposed to parasites unknown to most U.S. doctors and specialists. If there's a possibility that you have parasites from water or salad consumed abroad, then you should see an infectious disease doctor.
    paper moon 2 Replies Flag this Response
  • Hi MattBe very focussed with your new doctor on Monday. Stick to the facts. You have a long standing mild degree of spinal stenosis but explain the reasons why you do not believe this to be the cause of your symptoms. Regarding your ultrasound scan, 3 radiologists have detected "something", and believe this to be a hernia. If it isn't a hernia, then what is it? A definitive diagnosis is necessary to rule out, say, a cyst/tumour, (although I believe your blood results were reassuringly OK). I think if it were a varicosed vein, this would have shown up quite easily on ultrasound. It could be investigated very simply by means of a small camera procedure. I'm not convinved that a CT scan would necessarily reveal a 0.5cm tear alone, unless there was some herniated tissue protruding through it.If this is a small inguinal hernia, there should be no reason why you feel generally unwell/tired (assuming there is no frank ischiemic herniated bowel, in which case you would feel very ill indeed). It may just be the worry and frustration of trying to get some answers to this problem that is causing you to feel tired and listless.Let us know how you go on. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that you get some answers very quickly.Elisa
    ElisaDoolittle 20 Replies Flag this Response
  • Hi MattBe very focussed with your new doctor on Monday. Keep to the facts. You have a long standing mild degree of spinal stenosis but explain the reasons why you do not believe this to be the cause of your symptoms. Regarding your ultrasound scan, 3 radiologists have detected "something", and believe this to be a hernia. If it isn't a hernia, then what is it? A definitive diagnosis is necessary to rule out, say, a cyst/tumour, (although I believe your blood results were reassuringly OK). I think if it were a varicosed vein, this would have shown up quite easily on ultrasound. It could be investigated very simply by means of a small camera procedure. I'm not convinved that a CT scan would necessarily reveal a 0.5cm tear alone, unless there was some herniated tissue protruding through it.If this is a small inguinal hernia, there should be no reason why you feel generally unwell/tired (assuming there is no frank ischiemic herniated bowel, in which case you would feel very ill indeed), although it will cause pain from time to time. It may just be the worry and frustration of trying to get some answers to this problem that is causing you to feel tired and listless. You could ask for repeat blood work at the same time.Let us know how you go on. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that you get some answers very quickly.Elisa
    ElisaDoolittle 20 Replies Flag this Response
  • Hey Thanks a lot for your thoughts and encouragement. you hit it right on the head when you said, "if it's not a hernia, What is it?". That's precisely my frustration with this surgeon I saw last time. It's like, "Hey, wait a minute..". Last week when I set up my appt. with the new doctor at the Seattle Polyclinic, they said "this coming monday". Well I went today, and came to find out my appt. is on the 9th :-(Will def. keep you posted. I don't know what the deal is with this stiffness in my upper back and neck. it is exactly how they describe it as a symptom of gallbladder disease, just a constant feeling arthritic feeling between the shoulder blades. Could be whatever is poking through my inguinal canal is irritating some kind of nerve down there? I am on a cocktail of nerve pain drugs, given to me by the doctor who thinks it's a spine problem. Gabapentin, amitriptylene(10mg at bed) and tramadol. They make an enormous dent in the tired, achy feeling i have, and also greatly reduce the pain in my groin. Enough in fact that I am able to conduct my daily business with a managable level of pain. so it may be some kind of nerve related thing, however, I believe he is diagnosing it from the wrong end of the nerve, haha. Will keep you posted!THanks, Matt
    mholmes 3 Replies Flag this Response
  • Matt,I am wondering if you've made any progress with your situation? I've been having a very similar situation for 7 months now, i've had many of the same tests you've had an everything has been normal. I am on acid reflux medication now to see if it's ulcer related. I often have pain in my right upper abdomen that often runs into right testicle and also back pain. Pain often gets worse after large meals, etc and i was missed diagnosed with gallbladder disease as well. Your case sounds extremely similiar to mine...any additional info on your case would be greatly appreciated.Marc
    Anonymous 42789 Replies Flag this Response
  • Hi, I am doing MUCH better these days. I had the laparoscopic hernia repair operation done. After the surgery he confirmed that there was a hernia on the right side, and he went on to say that a hernia on the left side was "imminent" and he opted to place the mesh on that side as well so that i wouldn't have to come back. He said that the muscle around that area was stretched in such a way that there was a high probability that it would fail as well.After the surgery, i didn't do a whole lot for a couple weeks, and the recovery was pretty grueling. I took that time to also quit smoking and also get myself off the Tramadol and the other crap the old doctor was giving me, so i was really not feeling too chipper at all. A side note: DON'T believe the doctor or the manufacturer when they say Tramadol is not addictive or whatever. Quitting that stuff after several months of use was literally like trying to kick heroin. I had many many sleepless nights, sickness, diarrhea for 2 weeks, etc. STAY AWAY!!It was very gradual, but about 2-3 months after the surgery, i started to feel a noticable improvement in the pain i was having in the right groin area. As of right now, the right testicle/groin pain is 100% resolved. I have the pain under my rib very rarely, like a couple times a month. Having said that, I can't say with any real certainty that my recovery is due solely to the hernia operation. In fairness, It's equally possible that the original doctor was right, and it was a nerve problem that would take months or years to go away on its own. I guess i will never know. I'm glad I had the operation done though, no matter what... because it could have only gotten worse, and it would have had to have been done at some point in the future anyway. Better now than having it worsen and ending up with a life threatening situation.The only other thing anyone ever found wrong with me was my Vitamin D level, which was like in the single digits. I was kind of excited about that because studies say that can lead to joint and nerve problems, but the Dr. said that it is not at all uncommon to see D levels that low where we live (seattle) because it's Overcast like 80% of the time ;-)I still have the neck and upper back pain almost to the same degree as when i posted originally. I saw a rheumatologist. He ran a ton of tests to check for signs of various arthritis/inflammation etc., he says that it's likely i have a lot of the same "degenerative" issues in my neck that have been confirmed with MRI in my low back. I've just accepted the fact that i'm going to have to live with it, and try to do a lot of stretching and stuff during the day. You kind of get this idea in your head of the medical profession like everything is curable with a pill or a surgery or what have you, then when they can't tell you what's wrong definitavely it's a really lonely feeling. Next thing you know, you're sitting on the computer talking about your balls to a bunch of strangers in the hopes that somebody can at least identify with what you're going through. haha Well, thanks to everyone who posted replies to this message here, because it meant a lot to me to have a little bit of support from people who were genuinely concerned.If you have not done so already, i would demand that they perform an ultrasound to check for hernia. That's about the only real advice I can give you. Take care, Matt
    mholmes 3 Replies Flag this Response
  • Thank you so much for this post! My husband is going through the same symptoms right now (pain in right abdomen down to testicles that worsens/swells after meals). We have seen a family doc (who believed it was a hernia), a surgeon (who thought it was possibly his appendix), and we were then sent to a urologist who says it's not kideny related )as a previous doctor had thought). He has had a CT with no results. We feel like we're constantly being redirected and no body seems to have a clue. VERY frustrating! They all understand that this is causing him alot of pain and then they shrug their shoulders and send us to the next "specialist". He has another appointment with the surgeon tomorrow and is going to demand the ultrasound!
    Anonymous 42789 Replies Flag this Response
  • How did you get a surgery without a definitive "yes" in the ultrasound? I've been told that I don't have a hernia, rather, I have stretched muscles and the bowels are pushing against them. Basically I'm thinking they're going to tell me that I'm going to have to wait for it to break before they can help. Do you think they would put mesh there (like they did with your other side) before a hernia even developed? I mean...I don't want to wait to have a protrusion, but it seems that the pain is un bearable.
    Anonymous 42789 Replies Flag this Response
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  • I just came across this when I was researching why I could have ri ght testical/right groin pain. It started suddenly the other night and it has been 2 days now. I am pale and feel like i am lacking energy. As well as dizzy and very cold. My right testicle is swollen and has gotten less swollen over last night as well as the pain as gone down but i still feel even more dizzy and like light headed. I don't know why. I hope it is only a hernia, and nothing worse. I know it is not my appendix (even though the pain was really really bad right where my appendix used to be) because i had it removed last year.
    Anonymous 42789 Replies
    • August 24, 2009
    • 07:41 PM
    • 0
    Flag this Response
  • hello, ive had the same problem with pain in the groin to lower ribs on right side. about 10 years ago i had the pain in the groin to the center of my abdomin and went to the emergency room. they rushed me into surgery with the diagnosis of diverticulitus. i was on a colostomy bag for 6 months it was horrible. they put my plumbing back together and now ive got the same pain on the right side. now i take 4 aleves at a time when i feel the pain coming on and it goes away completely for about 2 or 3 weeks.that stuff is amazing. if i let the pain continue to build it would be so intense i would be on the floor in pain. ive had urinary track infection before and this pain here is not anything close its just unbearable. just a little info for you good luck. mercrls@hotmail.com Hello,My first post here, thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this. I apologize for the lengthy post.I was in perfect health when one day I experienced a "Pop" sensation while having a bowel movement. Instantly I had a feeling of total paralyzation over my genitals for about 15 minutes. it cleared up and I was left with a dull pain in my right testicle for about 2 weeks. At this point the pain began to intensify, spreading from my right testicle and groin up to just below my lowest rib on the right side, to the point where, despite having no health insurance at the time, I had no choice but to go to the hospital to get it looked at. The pain was so intense that I was certain that I had something life threatening going on.The doctor said he was unsure, but thought I may have a urinary tract infection, and gave me a short course of antibiotics. This improved my condition immensely in just a matter of several hours, and by the end of the next day, i was pretty sure I was going to recover fully. After another 2 weeks, the pain began to intensify once again, and I visited another doctor, who ordered a CT of my Abdomen and pelvis, and multiple blood and urine tests. $1500 cash for the CT, and no unusual findings in the CT or any of the other tests. he gave me another longer course of antibiotics and said to come back in 2 weeks. The antibiotics seemed to have little or no effect.At this time, I started to experience one of my bad lower back episodes that I get once every couple years. When I returned to the doctor, he ordered an MRI of my lumbar spine. The result was a "small annular tear" on the l4-l5 and l5-S1 discs and "Mild" disc space narrowing on a couple of the vertebrae, but "no frank impingement of exiting nerve roots". (or what I like to call, a perfectly normal 30 year old working man's back). Nevertheless, "referred nerve pain" became the official explanation for all of my problems for the next year and a half. You know when you just have a "gut" feeling that you're getting screwed? Well, that's kind of the feeling I have about this nerve pain explanation. I don't doubt that some people have this, but I'm not one of them, I just know it in my gut., literally! haha. It was impossible to get my doctors to think outside this box at all, probably due to the fact that it is an easy "catch-all" explanation, with no available means for testing, proving, or disproving. (just like when people go to the doctor with phony back pain so they can get pills, but in reverse, lol)To try and condense the story as much as possible, I've seen urologists, GI guys, regular internal medicine and family doctors, spine specialists... and paid money hand over fist for a year and a half and have had absolutely no real diagnosis or proposal to do anything to FIX THE PROBLEM. until.......2 months ago, I was so depressed and angry about this continuous pain, and I was searching the net for possible solutions. Inguinal Hernia kept popping up practically every time I searched my symptoms. I made an appt. to see the doctor and I demanded that he order an ultrasound of my pelvic area to check for a hernia. He was really dismissive, but agreed to order the test. I HAVE been given a physical exam for hernia on multiple occasions, and they didn't feel anything. The ultrasound tech showed me what she was looking at on the screen, and there was a "blob" like object smooshing up and down through the inguinal canal as i did the "bear down" maneuver. She said that this was in fact a small (approx 1/2 CM) hernia, and it could absolutely be the cause of my pain. She confirmed this with her supervisor as well. I wanted to kiss the ultrasound tech, lol. They scheduled a surgical consult, and the surgeon (without even looking at the images) read the report and said "that's not your problem." He completely dismissed the possibility of a hernia, due to the fact that he didn't feel anything upon his physical examination. He went on to more or less imply that ultrasound techs are stupid and they see things all the time that are false positives (swear to god). This was easily the most depressing moment of my entire life. He ordered ANOTHER CT of my abdomen and pelvis. This too came back negative, and identical to the first. He set up an appointment to see another GI doc. $2K more on my tab, and the medical merry go round starts once again for me. I was examined again last weekend by another Ultrasound tech (awesome guy, my sister works in the radiology office with him at another hospital) He confirmed the presence of an unidentified mass of material in the right inguinal canal, and said he wasn't sure if it was "bowel, fat, or Omentum" but he assured me that it was totally abnormal, and agreed that it was most certainly related to the pain I'm having in some way. He said that it was good because the object didn't appear to be "incarcerated" in any way. He also checked my liver, gallbladder, bile ducts, and bladder which all looked OK.So, That's where I'm at. Just a hardcore stabbing pain that travels from my ribs down to the groin/right testicle. It's been the same for a year and 2-3 months. It's worse for a day or two following a large meal. I've started to also experience a lot of mysterious pain in my upper back, and a general feeling of being "worn out" all the time, like an arthritis kind of feeling, and I know they are side effects of whatever is going on in my gut. I suspect that something may be torn or out of place in my abdomen, and it's poking down through the inguinal canal or something?. It has to be. But hey, I've said that so many times now I can't even keep count. I'd really appreciate any comments anyone may have. My life has been an absolute living ***l for almost a year and a half, and there is no end in sight.Thanks,Matt
    Anonymous 42789 Replies Flag this Response
  • Hi MattBe very focussed with your new doctor on Monday. Keep to the facts. You have a long standing mild degree of spinal stenosis but explain the reasons why you do not believe this to be the cause of your symptoms. Regarding your ultrasound scan, 3 radiologists have detected "something", and believe this to be a hernia. If it isn't a hernia, then what is it? A definitive diagnosis is necessary to rule out, say, a cyst/tumour, (although I believe your blood results were reassuringly OK). I think if it were a varicosed vein, this would have shown up quite easily on ultrasound. It could be investigated very simply by means of a small camera procedure. I'm not convinved that a CT scan would necessarily reveal a 0.5cm tear alone, unless there was some herniated tissue protruding through it.If this is a small inguinal hernia, there should be no reason why you feel generally unwell/tired (assuming there is no frank ischiemic herniated bowel, in which case you would feel very ill indeed), although it will cause pain from time to time. It may just be the worry and frustration of trying to get some answers to this problem that is causing you to feel tired and listless. You could ask for repeat blood work at the same time.Let us know how you go on. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that you get some answers very quickly.Elisa If he has been in pain for a while, he would most certainly be faitgued and tired of the pain. Pain can cause depression like symptoms after a while. same thing is happening to me. Never had an ultrasound of the abdomen though. I just figured I am going to start working out hard core again to make it finally herniate all the way and go into the emergency room and puke all over them.
    touchet 5 Replies Flag this Response
  • Matt,I am wondering if you've made any progress with your situation? I've been having a very similar situation for 7 months now, i've had many of the same tests you've had an everything has been normal. I am on acid reflux medication now to see if it's ulcer related. I often have pain in my right upper abdomen that often runs into right testicle and also back pain. Pain often gets worse after large meals, etc and i was missed diagnosed with gallbladder disease as well. Your case sounds extremely similiar to mine...any additional info on your case would be greatly appreciated.Marcdear guys,i am suffering from the same issue from last 2 years now, i initially had swelling in my testicles and than this groin pain kicked it, i recently came to know about this term "groin pain" as one of my cousins started experiencing this sort of pain. I have been to many doctors but none of them guided me properly...i have gone through many tests such as CBC, URINE ANALYSIS, ULTRA SOUND OF ABDOMINAL, SEMEN ANALYSIS, TESTICLE ULTRA SOUND, HEPATITIS B AND C, HIV but none of them gave any clear picture. Just my blood indicates about low platelet count which made no sense to me because platelet count has to do with less blood in your body and this is mostly when you have any injury or continuous blood shedding... i have never under gone any medical course like medication and stuff because no doctor has ever diagnosed me well... from past 4 months i hardly feel any swelling in my testicles but i get pain under my right ribs towards the right pelvic...the intensity of the pain is moderate as compared to the one which i had while swelling of testicle...this whole condition is still an unsolved mystery for me...
    Anonymous 42789 Replies
    • September 22, 2010
    • 07:08 AM
    • 0
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  • I'm having the exact same symptoms but I also have sciatica. I'm booked in for an MRI scan and will also see a back specialist. Had physio where they found my s.i joint was dislocated, this was fixed after 3 physio sessions but I'm still having all the same symptoms and i find the testicular pain very discomforting which I feel is made worse with the tramadol pain killers I've been prescribed. I saw a orthopaedic specialist yesterday who believed i had no spinal injuries. I'm relating to this forum because of the same pain symptoms, pain in my right hip, right groin, lower coccyx pain and testicular pain but i have sciatica down my right leg to my foot and down my left leg to my calf muscule. Any thoughts on this please. Thanks, Looie
    Anonymous 42789 Replies Flag this Response
  • I suspect that I have the same thing as you. Can you contact me on how it went for you? I'm desperate here.
    mmacak 1 Replies
    • November 3, 2014
    • 06:00 AM
    • 0
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  • My email is mihael.macak@gmail.com
    mmacak 1 Replies
    • November 3, 2014
    • 06:02 AM
    • 0
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  • similar case, torsion that seems to lead to something else in my lower right abdomin... was this ever resolved? Thanks, this totally sucks
    Anonymous 1 Replies
    • November 11, 2014
    • 03:46 AM
    • 0
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  • similar case, torsion that seemed to lead to something else... was this ever resolved? Thanks
    Anonymous 1 Replies
    • November 11, 2014
    • 03:56 AM
    • 0
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